Notice to Prosecute... Should I contest it?

[sussex2]

I'm honestly surprised that not sending the photo with the NIP here has not been challenged.

[sussex2]

A relation who was a serving police officer at the time successfully challenged a speeding fine on the grounds of being unable to identify the driver.
I think he succeeded because he knew the system and refused to be bullied by the clerk of the court.

[hir]

If I recall correctly I think the lights may have been turning to amber as I was crossing the line. I am 95% sure my vehicle had finished crossing the line by the time the lights changed to red.

The OP isn't sure whether or not he had fully crossed the line before the lights turned to red, so we don't know. But, a technical question for those who know about these things. If a driver crosses the line on green and comes to a halt with the whole of the vehicle (say) two foot beyond the white line, then clearly no offence has been committed [assuming no yellow boxes]. My question is this, what's the likelihood of the red-light camera being triggered if the vehicle then moves off from this stationary position whilst the lights are still on red, albeit no offence having been committed? The lights are presumably triggered by vehicle motion when the lights are on red. I just wonder if anyone knows of the technical probability or otherwise of the red-light triggering in the situation I describe.

[michael769]

But, a technical question for those who know about these things. If a driver crosses the line on green and comes to a halt with the whole of the vehicle (say) two foot beyond the white line, then clearly no offence has been committed [assuming no yellow boxes]. My question is this, what's the likelihood of the red-light camera being triggered if the vehicle then moves off from this stationary position whilst the lights are still on red, albeit no offence having been committed?

The chance is 0. Red light cameras are triggered by a three piezo or magnetic induction strips laid across the road the with the 1st being before the stop line and the 3rd after. In order if the system to trigger it must pass over all 3, so it would have to be behind the stop line when the red light came on.

[hir]

But, a technical question for those who know about these things. If a driver crosses the line on green and comes to a halt with the whole of the vehicle (say) two foot beyond the white line, then clearly no offence has been committed [assuming no yellow boxes]. My question is this, what's the likelihood of the red-light camera being triggered if the vehicle then moves off from this stationary position whilst the lights are still on red, albeit no offence having been committed?

The chance is 0. Red light cameras are triggered by a three piezo or magnetic induction strips laid across the road the with the 1st being before the stop line and the 3rd after. In order if the system to trigger it must pass over all 3, so it would have to be behind the stop line when the red light came on.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

[sussex2]

But, a technical question for those who know about these things. If a driver crosses the line on green and comes to a halt with the whole of the vehicle (say) two foot beyond the white line, then clearly no offence has been committed [assuming no yellow boxes]. My question is this, what's the likelihood of the red-light camera being triggered if the vehicle then moves off from this stationary position whilst the lights are still on red, albeit no offence having been committed?

The chance is 0. Red light cameras are triggered by a three piezo or magnetic induction strips laid across the road the with the 1st being before the stop line and the 3rd after. In order if the system to trigger it must pass over all 3, so it would have to be behind the stop line when the red light came on.

It wasn't me that said that however the answer makes the technical questions clear.

[GJD]

But, a technical question for those who know about these things. If a driver crosses the line on green and comes to a halt with the whole of the vehicle (say) two foot beyond the white line, then clearly no offence has been committed [assuming no yellow boxes]. My question is this, what's the likelihood of the red-light camera being triggered if the vehicle then moves off from this stationary position whilst the lights are still on red, albeit no offence having been committed?

The chance is 0. Red light cameras are triggered by a three piezo or magnetic induction strips laid across the road the with the 1st being before the stop line and the 3rd after. In order if the system to trigger it must pass over all 3, so it would have to be behind the stop line when the red light came on.

Thanks for the comprehensive answer.

My understanding is that the system has to take two photos (both with the red light showing) to show that the vehicle moved across the line. I don't remember where I got that idea from though so it might be nonsense, but having said that I'm not sure how a single photo could conclusively show that the car was moving as opposed to being stationary and part-way across. Perhaps the sensors in the road confirm that the car was moving at the time of the photo.

[michael769]

My understanding is that the system has to take two photos (both with the red light showing) to show that the vehicle moved across the line. I don't remember where I got that idea from though so it might be nonsense, but having said that I'm not sure how a single photo could conclusively show that the car was moving as opposed to being stationary and part-way across.

That is pretty much correct. Funnily enough magistrates find photographs easier to comprehend than detailed technical evidence of technology. It also serves to provide corroboration of the evidence of movement obtained from the sensors.

Perhaps the sensors in the road confirm that the car was moving at the time of the photo.

You could just make do with the photos to confirm movement, but that would create a situation where the camera would be prone to false triggers which would significantly increase the workload for the operators, so in practice you do want sensors sophisticated enough not to false trigger.

In reality the system is set up to err in the favour of the driver (though not as much as those caught would like!) - it is more efficient to "lose" borderline cases than to have to wade through masses of false detection and run the risk of mistakenly prosecuting innocent drivers with the attendant bad publicity that would result. You just need to look at some of the media reports of council enforcement mishaps (example) to see where zero tolerance enforcement leads you.

As with most cases of traffic enforcement, there are enough people to catch who are clearly breaking the rules (our local traffic copper one told me that roadside enforcement is like shooting fish in a sardine can), to want to bother about borderline cases.

[MGF]

I do agree with you that there is no good reason why copies of the photos cannot be added to the offer letter.

Cost of printing. /cynic - and possibly the number of people that would then contest marginal evidence about whether the driver can be accurately identified.

Usually, the Police don't need to identify the driver. They can rely on the RK doing that for them. The photos are to identify the vehicle.

[michael769]

And of course even if a photo showed innocence the requirement to identify the driver still stands as it is not conditional on the offence being proved.

[hir]

You just need to look at some of the media reports of council enforcement mishaps (example) to see where zero tolerance enforcement leads you.

I quote from the article highlighted..."There was also an issue about drivers entering a bus lane in order to avoid queuing behind a right-turning vehicle."

Is this manoeuvre a valid reason [valid as in... there is not offence committed] for voiding a penalty charge? Or, was it the case that the local authority just gave up and couldn't be bothered with the agro' and bad publicity?

[sussex2]

Zero tolerance as I understand it originated in the metropolitan police in New York in the U.S. and was intended to reduce corruption within the then corruption ridden police force. It may or may not be different these days.

[FlyTrap]

Thank you to all the contrbutors of this thread. It seems pretty clear to me that I am mistaken about crossing the line before the red light shown. I hadn't considered there being sensors on (or just before) the white line. Seems obvious to me now that the system would be set up this way otherwise it would be impossible to prove a vehicle was committing an offence.

Ill get my NIP sent off and get on that course eveyone raves about!

[sussex2]

'Ill get my NIP sent off and get on that course eveyone raves about!'

If you have studied more proficient driving at all be prepared for disappointment.
But then we can all learn

[MGF]

Flytrap is hir.