Driving lesson

[TheInsanity1234]

Sounds perverse to me; there are many cars where no gas=stall.

The Citigo I was driving certainly had no issues with no gas but it was still something I wasn't expecting.

[Horse]

No, he told me not to apply any gas after I tried to do so the first time, so I just went with the flow and I never applied gas when pulling away for the duration of the lesson. Excellent, indeed, but downright annoying when you need to try and pull away quickly.

That may well be true, but for the duration of the lesson, did you need to do so?

[Horse]

Sounds perverse to me; there are many cars where no gas=stall.

Such as?

Our 'family' car is a fairly gutless 1.6 Altea. Yesterday afternoon, through being clumsy with the gear selection, I managed to get third instead of first. But I still pulled away smoothly with four adults on board. OK, that needed some throttle, but the main thing was smooth, gradual release of the clutch.

Even with a big dollop of revs (I hope you're keeping up with the technical terms I use), being abrupt with the clutch will stall the engine (anyone remember Hammond on TG attempting to drive an F1 car, and stalling it - no-one in their right minds accuses an F1 car of being short on power!).

[TheInsanity1234]

That may well be true, but for the duration of the lesson, did you need to do so?

For the 30 minutes of driving, in a private road complex with about 5 other cars on it, no I did not.
But it's a useful skill to have, wouldn't you say?

[Horse]

That may well be true, but for the duration of the lesson, did you need to do so?

For the 30 minutes of driving, in a private road complex with about 5 other cars on it, no I did not.
But it's a useful skill to have, wouldn't you say?

Ooh that's an interesting response Close to the old chestnut / myth that 'You need a powerful engine in case you need to get out of trouble' . . . Trouble that a bigger engine is more likely to get you into

So where will it end? Will you demand a more and more powerful car to get into smaller an smaller gaps?

I think you said this was your first lesson? So in that 30 minutes, which key skills would you expect to cover, and which key skills might have to wait?

From my experience of teaching novice riders (and experienced, but lapsed, riders returning to biking) the key thing to teach when pulling away is how to stop

When it comes to surviving on the road, the key skill to develop and use is what goes on with your eyes and brain, identifying hazards and taking appropriate action early.

[GJD]

Also, from your [future] passengers' point of view, they'll be happier with a smooth journey (and less likely to vomit in your car).

Not to mention the OP's wallet's point of view when he doesn't need to buy himself quite so many new clutches over his driving career. Cars are different and some might need some gas, but the way the OP's learning it seems the right way round to me too. The primary control for pulling away from stationary is the clutch pedal. The gas pedal is only involved if necessary, and only as much as necessary.

[TheInsanity1234]

Ooh that's an interesting response Close to the old chestnut / myth that 'You need a powerful engine in case you need to get out of trouble' . . . Trouble that a bigger engine is more likely to get you into

That's a good point. If you accelerate too quickly, then you might put yourself into trouble that wouldn't have happened if you accelerated slowly.

So where will it end? Will you demand a more and more powerful car to get into smaller an smaller gaps

Heh, no I won't! But I do see your point

I think you said this was your first lesson? So in that 30 minutes, which key skills would you expect to cover, and which key skills might have to wait?

My first lesson with the driving school, yes, but not my first ever lesson. I've had about 1 and 1/2 hours of driving lessons with Cardrome in the past, and another 1 1/2 hours of chugging around in a field in mum's Clio

From my experience of teaching novice riders (and experienced, but lapsed, riders returning to biking) the key thing to teach when pulling away is how to stop

When it comes to surviving on the road, the key skill to develop and use is what goes on with your eyes and brain, identifying hazards and taking appropriate action early.

Fair enough. I noticed that sometimes, when I checked mirrors and things before manoeuvring, I had to double check what I saw in the mirrors, simply because I was too busy thinking about what I was doing to take in what I was looking at :/ This is one of the things I want to avoid when out on the public roads at 17, is having to learn all the necessary skills in situations where one botched mirror check could be the difference between a safe negotiation of a roundabout, and a crunched up bumper.

[Horse]

When it comes to surviving on the road, the key skill to develop and use is what goes on with your eyes and brain, identifying hazards and taking appropriate action early.

Fair enough. I noticed that sometimes, when I checked mirrors and things before manoeuvring, I had to double check what I saw in the mirrors, simply because I was too busy thinking about what I was doing to take in what I was looking at :/ This is one of the things I want to avoid when out on the public roads at 17, is having to learn all the necessary skills in situations where one botched mirror check could be the difference between a safe negotiation of a roundabout, and a crunched up bumper.

OK, two things:

1. When you do a mirror check, don't look at your mirror. Eh? What? No, look at what you can see, then tell yourself what is, in detail. So, "mirror" Vs "red car, closing fast". That leads to 2.

2. Identify the hazard - look for detail, hunt it down! Then decide how it could affect you. So, "Red car, closing fast - he's going to struggle to pass before the end of the dual carriageway so I need to ease off the throttle"*

* You knew I'd work it in somehow

[TheInsanity1234]

OK, two things:

1. When you do a mirror check, don't look at your mirror. Eh? What? No, look at what you can see, then tell yourself what is, in detail. So, "mirror" Vs "red car, closing fast". That leads to 2.

2. Identify the hazard - look for detail, hunt it down! Then decide how it could affect you. So, "" education car, closing fast - he's going to struggle to pass before the end of the dual carriageway so I need to ease off the throttle"*

* You knew I'd work it in somehow

I was actually looking inside the mirror and looking at things in there, but it's just that my brain was processing the action as well as the information, which meant I would occasionally look, then return to the forward view, only to look again at the mirror, because I wasn't sure what I actually was looking at in there.

[Horse]

Sounds perverse to me; there are many cars where no gas=stall.

Such as?

Any car with a low mass flywheel and with a clutch you expect to last more than 5000 miles.

Does the OP's car fit that category?

[Horse]

OK, two things:

1. When you do a mirror check, don't look at your mirror. Eh? What? No, look at what you can see, then tell yourself what is, in detail. So, "mirror" Vs "red car, closing fast". That leads to 2.

2. Identify the hazard - look for detail, hunt it down! Then decide how it could affect you. So, "" education car, closing fast - he's going to struggle to pass before the end of the dual carriageway so I need to ease off the throttle"*

* You knew I'd work it in somehow

I was actually looking inside the mirror and looking at things in there, but it's just that my brain was processing the action as well as the information, which meant I would occasionally look, then return to the forward view, only to look again at the mirror, because I wasn't sure what I actually was looking at in there.

Again, two points:

1. The what will come with time and experience - but that can work against safety!

2. Say what you see, out aloud. It helps understanding and remembering.

[GJD]

Clearly not, but who can say what type of car he may own or drive in the future? I myself have had the opportunity of driving cars in that category and the owners were pleased that I didn't slip the clutch.

By definition you have to slip the clutch when you move off from stationary . Isn't the point that, when you slip it, you're better off doing that against the minimum amount of gas necessary?

As the minimum amount necessary is quite often zero, I think the right principle to learn first is that it's the clutch you use to get the car moving. You can bring in later the fact that in some cars (or in some circumstances, e.g. a hill start) some gas will be required while you do that to prevent stalling.

[TheInsanity1234]

with a clutch you expect to last more than 5000 miles.

I would hope that any car would have a clutch that would last more than 5k miles.

Again, two points:

1. The what will come with time and experience - but that can work against safety!

2. Say what you see, out aloud. It helps understanding and remembering.

Okie dokie! These tips are really useful, keep them coming" I've got 3 weeks and 5 full days before I have my next lesson! (13th July)

Keep it all coming!

And I'll keep this thread updated with reports from every lesson, and I'll hope that you guys can keep coming up with interesting information!

[TheInsanity1234]

I would hope that any car would have a clutch that would last more than 5k miles.

Well, yes, provided you don't mistreat it. If you're prepared to search through the 400+ pages of the thread "Flemke, is this your McLaren?" on Pistonheads you will read about some unsympathetic oaf who destroyed the clutch on his new Porsche Carrera GT in 500 miles.
(Apart from that, it's a fascinating read: I've been driven round the Nordschleif by Flemke in one of his cars and he's not only a superb driver but also a genuinely pleasant person).

Blah, I can't be bothered! If anyone can recall the approximate page number that'd be great? (And also, what volume, since it's so long it's actually go into Vol 4 at the moment)

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

In my experience the first stage is more about making the car do what you want, when you want and under smooth control. Once you're getting on well with that, your attention can move more outside and dealing with other road users, tricky junctions etc. When you've got that as well then it's time for your test!

Still only levels 1 and 2 though, Martin. We should be trying to bring in levels 3 and 4 especially with "exuberant" young chaps like Insanity1234 I thought it was interesting how his attention was all focused on level 1 in this initial lesson with the instructor wanting to move onto level 2 (observation outside the car), and some concern about the higher levels in his comments about exuberance...



Insanity - good advice from Martin there but try and mix levels from the start rather than working up them one at at time.