ADUK Archive

What does defensive and advanced driving mean to you

Nigel wrote:What does defensive and advanced driving mean to you

Defensive driving is highly desirable as a means of keeping out of trouble: I'm less sure about 'advanced'....which can be a bit over-rated, maybe, sometimes....

Best wishes all,
Dave - terminally confused.

Nigel wrote:What does defensive and advanced driving mean to you

Is there a difference? Possibly, in that I see AD as 'high[er] standards'. And that, of course, can apply equally to DD. Rather circular, isn't it?

Nigel wrote:What does defensive and advanced driving mean to you

I would have thought advanced driving incorporates defensive driving (or should do) whereas the opposite isn't necessarily true.

I've seen people drive who can barely select an appropriate gear, cut corners and have no concept of MSPSL or IPSGA. However, for whatever reason, they're never had an accident. It's reasonable to surmise that they are keeping out of trouble and therefore driving defensively to some extent. I certainly wouldn't call them advanced though!

richie349 wrote:

Nigel wrote:What does defensive and advanced driving mean to you

I would have thought advanced driving incorporates defensive driving (or should do) whereas the opposite isn't necessarily true.

I've seen people drive who can barely select an appropriate gear, cut corners and have no concept of MSPSL or IPSGA. However, for whatever reason, they're never had an accident. It's reasonable to surmise that they are keeping out of trouble and therefore driving defensively to some extent. I certainly wouldn't call them advanced though!

Indeed, many/most drivers have a level of ability that keeps them reasonably in one piece and safe - they move the car in space. Is it enough space, do they command their safety bubble, probably not. They may have a few bad practices from time to time that causes them an insurance claim - their driving could be described as haphazard, they stay lucky for a while but may end up meeting themselves (another haphazard, distracted driver in a hurry) and have a bump. What allows them to carry on as they are? Any bump is someone else's fault, not theirs and their risk aversion level is quite low naturally.

Other drivers can be more intelligent in their driving, more naturally, innately risk averse (in everything they do, not just in driving).
The range of driving personality extends from timid to bold. They are keen on space and are more than aware of other road users' foibles and errors.
This group are defensive.

Both of these can slip into each other's "zone", have good days, bad days.

Advanced builds on this risk aversion/management, demands in-depth knowledge of HC/Roadcraft, POWDERS, adds in the rigours of IPSGA, a silky, expert smoothness in the use of the controls, a progress imperative (not timid, then) and develops COAST, hazard perception and the driving plan well beyond the norm.

A bad day for Advanced can be just as bad as the other two groups' bad day but it is, hopefully, less likely for one reason: Advanced can and should give a driver a Reflective Competence, the ability and motivation for self-evaluation and self-assessment and a timely "re-centring".
Some Advanced drivers, though, like having the badge but don't live and breathe it.
Some Advanced driving organisations don't require retesting, after all.

richie349 wrote:

Nigel wrote:What does defensive and advanced driving mean to you

I would have thought advanced driving incorporates defensive driving (or should do) whereas the opposite isn't necessarily true.

I've seen people drive who can barely select an appropriate gear, cut corners and have no concept of MSPSL or IPSGA. However, for whatever reason, they're never had an accident. It's reasonable to surmise that they are keeping out of trouble and therefore driving defensively to some extent. I certainly wouldn't call them advanced though!

Here's what I think.

'Defensive Driving', to me means driving in such a planned way so as to avoid the need to react (as much). In contrast, most drivers I see out and about, can use a car to get them through the gaps without hitting anything. I tend to think all those road signs are wasted on them, especially the NSL sign which generally goes unnoticed and which I would like to see painted in large white numbers on the road and for the entire length of it. Matching numbers is simpler for some than remembering what a sign means.
'Advanced Driving' doesn't really describe itself very well and you'll find a wider array of 'definitions' of it with the more people you ask. Generally it means being in possession of a more refined way of driving and it during this refining process that sometimes much is made over little.

To me, my driving has changed a bit since I first started with the AD thing last year. I have to say that it hasn't changed that much though and I still regard much of the AD i've formally encountered, to be a big deal over not a lot. Since i've been around AD for a year, I do now perceive some situations differently but that's not to say that it's better than what I was doing before, just more in line with a way of perceiving things as per IAM/ RoADAR definitions. To some this means that I was either blissfully unaware of what I was doing behind the wheel of a car for almost 30 years of accident-free international motoring pre-AD or that i'm still not yet an Advanced Driver, by some ADer's definitions. Again, it's a bit of a can of worms trying to pin it (AD) down and in the end, after careful consideration, it's whatever it means to you that matters. Experience is the teacher here.

Reality proves that some speed limits are still somewhat subjective to me, and as per the 'no such thing as a perfect driver' memo, sometimes, and you'll find this hard to believe i'm sure, even I, with an IAM F1rst, still make mistakes.

As I say, nothing beats experience but only if it's used as a way to self-improvement and to help others to benefit from it.

Advanced Driving means not getting it wrong, whereas Defensive Driving means hoping you don't get it wrong.

superplum wrote:Advanced Driving means not getting it wrong, whereas Defensive Driving means hoping you don't get it wrong.

richie349 wrote:

Nigel wrote:What does defensive and advanced driving mean to you

I would have thought advanced driving incorporates defensive driving (or should do) whereas the opposite isn't necessarily true.

I agree with this. I also think that defensive driving is something drivers ought to do whereas advanced driving can be something drivers want to do.

I think the techniques and toolbox provided by AD can be applied to prioritise a few objectives. One is safety, one is progress, and there are probably others like comfort, courtesy or going unnoticed. That's not to say any of those are mutually exclusive, and a higher level of skill allows you to pour a bit more into each glass, but you can pursue one more than others.

I think DD is a particular configuration of that, with the aim of prioritising safety, and possibly a narrower spectrum of techniques as a result.

For me, defensive driver training was what ultimately led me to advanced driving.

I'm sure we will all have our own ideas on this one. I know my definitions will not be accepted by all.

My interpretation of defensive driving is a style or form of driving that is learnt to reduce the risks in driving. It can be taken to various levels e.g. IAM pass, F1RST, Masters pass/distinction, RoADA bronze, silver, gold, police rapid response or police advanced etc.

What defines Advanced Driving, for me, is Defensive Driving at any of the above levels but with the addition that the individual has the desire to extend his/her knowledge, understanding, skills in driving beyond merely defensive. It is to do with an approach to driving.

In my mind an advanced police driver is likely to be very high up on defensive driving but without the extra, mentioned above they are not an advanced driver in my eyes. By contrast someone with a pass at IAM or RoADA who has the extra is an advanced driver in my book.

So as I define it there are drivers at many levels that can rightly call themselves advanced drivers.

jcochrane wrote:I'm sure we will all have our own ideas on this one. I know my definitions will not be accepted by all.

My interpretation of defensive driving is a style or form of driving that is learnt to reduce the risks in driving. It can be taken to various levels e.g. IAM pass, F1RST, Masters pass/distinction, RoADA bronze, silver, gold, police rapid response or police advanced etc.

What defines Advanced Driving, for me, is Defensive Driving at any of the above levels but with the addition that the individual has the desire to extend his/her knowledge, understanding, skills in driving beyond merely defensive. It is to do with an approach to driving.

In my mind an advanced police driver is likely to be very high up on defensive driving but without the extra, mentioned above they are not an advanced driver in my eyes. By contrast someone with a pass at IAM or RoADA who has the extra is an advanced driver in my book.

So as I define it there are drivers at many levels that can rightly call themselves advanced drivers.

I would go along with this

I've never really liked either term though. When I first heard the term 'defensive driving' I thought it meant the opposite to what it does, Ie that it was some way towards being aggressive. Advanced implies that you think you know better than everyone else, when that is far from the truth. We never stop learning - which makes it all part of the fun and drive. That said I have failed to think of a better word

Advanced driving means you know more about driving than other people.

Defensive driving means avoiding other people.

Well, that's how I see it

gannet wrote:

jcochrane wrote:I'm sure we will all have our own ideas on this one. I know my definitions will not be accepted by all.

My interpretation of defensive driving is a style or form of driving that is learnt to reduce the risks in driving. It can be taken to various levels e.g. IAM pass, F1RST, Masters pass/distinction, RoADA bronze, silver, gold, police rapid response or police advanced etc.

What defines Advanced Driving, for me, is Defensive Driving at any of the above levels but with the addition that the individual has the desire to extend his/her knowledge, understanding, skills in driving beyond merely defensive. It is to do with an approach to driving.

In my mind an advanced police driver is likely to be very high up on defensive driving but without the extra, mentioned above they are not an advanced driver in my eyes. By contrast someone with a pass at IAM or RoADA who has the extra is an advanced driver in my book.

So as I define it there are drivers at many levels that can rightly call themselves advanced drivers.

I would go along with this

I've never really liked either term though. When I first heard the term 'defensive driving' I thought it meant the opposite to what it does, Ie that it was some way towards being aggressive. Advanced implies that you think you know better than everyone else, when that is far from the truth. We never stop learning - which makes it all part of the fun and drive. That said I have failed to think of a better word

Many years ago I went to presentation about Defensive Driving. I thought it was going to be about security/protection driving as in DPG, Royal Protection or Personal Protection