Managed Motorways - safety

[martine]

So until this week I have been a supporter of managed motorways - they seem to keep traffic flowing and I was reassured by the safety measures in case of breakdown. My understanding was the zillions of cameras were constantly monitoring the hard-shoulder and a computer would automatically recognise a broken down vehicle and change the overhead signs accordingly.

After an event last week, it seems my understanding was wrong.

I was traveling on the M5 Northbound between J17-16 (if you must know). The overheads were displaying 'Congestion - use hard shoulder' - so I did but within a mile I was faced with a broken down vehicle straddling the verge and hard-shoulder. I spotted it a long way back and could move into L1 with no problem. The driver was attempting to change an off-side wheel and was frightening close to L1 . He already had the new wheel out on the ground - telling me he had been there for more than a few minutes.

So back home I used the Highways Agency website to make a complaint.

This is the reply I received today:

Dear Mr Evans,

Thank you for contacting the Highways Agency. Our camera’s do not detect blockages we use MIDAS (Motorway Incident Detection automatic signalling) which are loops set into the carriageway itself that detect such events. We also have 100’s of camera’s that staff scroll through looking for incidents. Because of the sheer amount of camera’s it is impossible to monitor these all the time.

I have found the incident you describe and we became aware of it at 1715hrs, we immediately changed the signal above the affected lane to a red X and despatched a patrol to assist the stranded motorist.

Kind regards,

This has shaken my belief in their safety.

Any thoughts?

[Rick101]

I certainly think there needs to be some new advice about what to do in a breakdown situation.

I wonder how many vehicles would approach behind the broken down one even in the time it may take to call emergency services. Massive risk.

[martine]

Just checked my google phone tracking for last Monday and I passed the broken down vehicle at approx. 16.59 - according to the reply above, the HA didn't close the lane until 17.15

I should point out even though the hard-shoulder was open due to 'congestion' it was running well and most traffic was doing the set limit of 60mph. It's not like it was slow.

[Horse]

MIDAS uses loops in the road surface. Typically these will be every couple of miles (e.g. where there are gantries or other message systems), so - presumably - passing traffic was moving back into the h/s (technically 'LBS - lane below signal - 1') and the the loops won't have indicated a problem or obstruction.

On the new M25 ALR sections, about 85% is covered by RADAR rather than loops, plus it has '200%' camera coverage for most areas.

Also, new ALR sections have the ERAs, Emergency Refuge Areas. My advice would always be, on those roads, at the first hint of trouble, get in an ERA ASAP.

Trying to change a tyre in a live lane is practically suicidal!

- Get out of the vehicle, over the barrier (if there is one) - at least 2m away, or off the carriageway as far as possible
- Stand UPSTREAM where you can see the rear of your vehicle - NOT downstream.

Phone for help. If there's a fixed phone, use it - it instantly identifies your location to the HA.

If you're an AA member and have a smart phone, load their app - it uses GPS to locate you.

M-ways have the small marker posts every 100m and driver info signs every .5km, which identify the motorway, direction, and location, eg: M4 A 100/0 - give that information.


Thanks for the reminder, I need to start a new thread . . .

[Horse]

So back home I used the Highways Agency website to make a complaint.

Any thoughts?

Yes, were you complaining that the driver was a f@ckwit for not calling for help?

Otherwise it's hardly the HA's fault!

[Rick101]

M-ways have the small marker posts every 100m and driver info signs every .5km, which identify the motorway, direction, and location, eg: M4 A 100/0 - give that information.

With regard to this. How is the A and B direction identified? I know B will always be decreasing mileage, but does is there any stiplulation which end starts at 0 miles?

I know on the railway you have Up and Down directions. Up direction is always towards London.
Bit difficult working out which is which when you are in London though!

[Slink_Pink]

It is somewhat worrying that it basically falls down to some person paying attention to one of many video feeds to detect this. Surely much better to have an automated system alerting operators with too many false positives than have someone attempting wheel change in a live lane. The operators still need to be in the loop, but I can't imaging it's that hard to develop a video processing system that identifies possible breaks in traffic flow and directs the operator to a particular feed. I still have a webcam somewhere, ~£30 from 5+ years ago, that came with software capable of determining whether something moved into a part of it's view (which you could draw a little box around) - it was great for watching one of my private parking spaces as it triggered filming whenever anything entered the space.

[Slink_Pink]

M-ways have the small marker posts every 100m and driver info signs every .5km, which identify the motorway, direction, and location, eg: M4 A 100/0 - give that information.

With regard to this. How is the A and B direction identified? I know B will always be decreasing mileage, but does is there any stiplulation which end starts at 0 miles?

I know on the railway you have Up and Down directions. Up direction is always towards London.
Bit difficult working out which is which when you are in London though!

My understanding (may be wrong) is that the A is leading away from the origin (i.e. J1 end) of the m'way - similarly to house numbers increasing as you move further out of a town/city/village centre, in theory at least!

[Horse]

It is somewhat worrying that it basically falls down to some person paying attention to one of many video feeds to detect this.

Nope, the worrying bit is that the driver decides not to call it in, whether by walking to a fixed phone or using a mobile. Brave? You decide.

Surely much better to have an automated system alerting operators with too many false positives than have someone attempting wheel change in a live lane. . . . that came with software capable of determining whether something moved into a part of it's view (which you could draw a little box around)

There are plenty of options, I'm fairly sure they will have looked at them.

[Horse]

M-ways have the small marker posts every 100m and driver info signs every .5km, which identify the motorway, direction, and location, eg: M4 A 100/0 - give that information.

With regard to this. How is the A and B direction identified? I know B will always be decreasing mileage, but does is there any stiplulation which end starts at 0 miles?

I know on the railway you have Up and Down directions. Up direction is always towards London.
Bit difficult working out which is which when you are in London though!

My understanding (may be wrong) is that the A is leading away from the origin (i.e. J1 end) of the m'way - similarly to house numbers increasing as you move further out of a town/city/village centre, in theory at least!

Unless of idle curiosity, the average driver doesn't need to know (trust me, it gets complicated at junctions, where 'A' and 'B' won't suffice!) - just read the numbers off and let the control room staff do their job

[Slink_Pink]

It is somewhat worrying that it basically falls down to some person paying attention to one of many video feeds to detect this.

Nope, the worrying bit is that the driver decides not to call it in, whether by walking to a fixed phone or using a mobile. Brave? You decide..

Surely much better to have an automated system alerting operators with too many false positives than have someone attempting wheel change in a live lane. . . . that came with software capable of determining whether something moved into a part of it's view (which you could draw a little box around)

There are plenty of options, I'm fairly sure they will have looked at them.

I'm sure it was budget thing, but I thought it cost about £1.9million per death on the roads these days - it seems very (very) difficult for me not to improve this system. Very glad we don't have any on this side of the border yet!

[martine]

So back home I used the Highways Agency website to make a complaint.

Any thoughts?

Yes, were you complaining that the driver was a f@ckwit for not calling for help?

Otherwise it's hardly the HA's fault!

Yes I think it's very much the HA's fault. The HA designed hard-shoulder/all-lane running. The HA are meant to monitor it for the safety of all concerned. c. 20 mins with a broken down vehicle in a live running lane can't be right.

[Horse]

So back home I used the Highways Agency website to make a complaint.

Any thoughts?

Yes, were you complaining that the driver was a f@ckwit for not calling for help?

Otherwise it's hardly the HA's fault!

Yes I think it's very much the HA's fault. The HA designed hard-shoulder/all-lane running. The HA are meant to monitor it for the safety of all concerned. c. 20 mins with a broken down vehicle in a live running lane can't be right.

The majority of roads in the UK don't have hard shoulders, or emergency phones! If the driver chose not to call the control room but, instead to crack on with changing a tyre, that's hardly their fault.

[martine]

The majority of roads in the UK don't have hard shoulders, or emergency phones! If the driver chose not to call the control room but, instead to crack on with changing a tyre, that's hardly their fault.

The majority of roads don't have a 70 limit. Yes the driver should have called in but what about if they were incapacitated, disabled, don't have a mobile, scared.

I thought the whole safety justification for safe hard-shoulder running was the HA were monitoring it...20 mins is a long time.

[TheInsanity1234]

That near-miss was terrifying!

But yeah, I've always been suspicious of these Managed Motorway schemes, for exactly that reason. The emergency refuge areas are too far apart to be of any use at all to broken down vehicles. The other thing that was mentioned was how if your car broke down, you should get out and go up the embankment away from the car so you'd be safe.

All well and good until you encounter something like this:


This is an older section, but IIRC, then there are a few Smart Motorways with these 'sunken' sections with vertical concrete walls on the side. Nowhere to go if you're stuck in the live h/s.