ADUK Archive

Hi there, I'm new to this forum.
I recently had an accident on a roundabout where a cement mixer went into the rear nearside of my car (right by the back wheel) after turning in behind me and clipping my car.
Basically, it was a roundabout with 2 exits- straight on (dual carriageway) and right (single carriageway) and obviously back the way you came. On the approach to the roundabout there are 3 lanes with no markings.

I was in the middle lane pulling onto the roundabout next to the HGV who was in the left lane. I was going straight to come off the roundabout in the outermost lane of the dual carriageway ahead. All other traffic for the dual carriageway was either in the middle or left lanes, as they are when I travel the same route every day for work.
I was all but off the roundabout when the HGV turned in behind me and clipped the back of my car.
...

...Their excuse was that as there were no markings they were entitled to continue around the roundabout from the lefthand lane (cutting across the other 2 lanes) and that I was in the wrong lane and cut them up.
...

I'm not questioning who is to blame... I'm in no doubt it was them; it is just whether there is anywhere in the highway code that states they were clearly in the wrong? I want to sound informed for when I get asked my side of the story by their insurers (if they contact me and dont only go through my insurer?)

Sorry for the very long post!!
Cheers

Hi WashBurner and welcome.

https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-159-to-203/roundabouts-184-to-190

Rule 186...
...When taking an exit to the right or going full circle, unless signs or markings indicate otherwise
signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to exit the roundabout...

Wecome to the forum WAshburner,

Do you have any witnesses?

Quote Rule 186 of the Highway Code to the LGV drivers employers, and remind them that any rule therein may be used in a court of law.

Great, thanks!

No witnesses who stopped unfortunately, it was the daily rush hour so everyone was too busy trying to get to work to bother stopping it seems!

I'm hoping the insurers have the sense to not fight too hard, but what are the chances of that happening hey?!

A lorry is often likely to start in a lane(s) further left (to get to the same destination) than a car would choose.

Roundabouts are notorious for split liability outcomes.

Insurers will look to case law (& there's plenty of that), not just the highway code.

eg
http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2003/354.html

Each case will be dealt with on it's own merits.

Lorrys, due to their size often have to take a path through a roundabout that looks wrong to other road users, and that does often include having to cut across the lines, or even taking a completely "wrong lane".Other drivers are expected to be aware of this and adjust their driving accordingly. Obviously truck drivers do need to check it is safe to do so before they do, and are also expected to be aware of the risk that their route may confuse other road users and make appropriate allowance for this.

This means, in practice, that both need to use their good judgement and in effect "feel" their way through the situation, so I am afraid you will not find any definitive "rules" in the Highway Code to cover this situation.

I would advise concentrating less on his position and more on the question of if he could be reasonably expected to have seen you (or otherwise be aware of your presence) and thus should have avoided allowing his vehicle to run into yours.

A lot will depend on the size of the roundabout and the available space, and also the relative positions of the vehicles.

It might be helpful if you could tell us the location on the incident so that we can get a better handle on the road layout.

Large vehicles may take a different route on roundabouts - that is in the HC

If they do take a different route than what most are doing then they must clearly indicate their intentions and be aware of other road users using the 'normal' lines of flow

If it was indicating and you were in effect overtaking it then it could be deemed that you acted in an unreasonable way but without being there it is difficult to come to that determination

Thanks for the advice people,

Michael769, the roundabout in question was where the A46 meets the B4082, just east of Coventry and west of Coombe Abbey (we were approaching from the North)
I'd say it was a pretty large roundabout; if it was a long articulated lorry I would say that would be a slightly better reason for his positioning, however this was just your standard sized mixer so the turning circle shouldn't be that big!

ROG, he certainly wasn't indicating when I pulled up to the roundabout, but after entering the roundabout I was pretty much parallel until about half way across where I started to overtake, so I couldn't see whether he indicated or not, but by that time I was in a postion where I couldn't have done anything about it even if he was.
We were sat next to each other at the line waiting for a gap so he had plenty of chance to see me too.

I wouldn't be surprised if it is a split case what with the stories you hear of insurance claims - the most frustrating bit is having managed to build up 6 years of no claims as a young driver to have it whisked away in an accident that I really don't believe I had much influence on. My premiums are going shoot through the roof!

WAshburner wrote:ROG, he certainly wasn't indicating when I pulled up to the roundabout, but after entering the roundabout I was pretty much parallel until about half way across where I started to overtake, so I couldn't see whether he indicated or not, but by that time I was in a postion where I couldn't have done anything about it even if he was.
We were sat next to each other at the line waiting for a gap so he had plenty of chance to see me too.

That being the case then the LGV was in the wrong

WAshburner wrote:Thanks for the advice people,

Michael769, the roundabout in question was where the A46 meets the B4082, just east of Coventry and west of Coombe Abbey (we were approaching from the North)

That roundabout is a bit on the tight side for an articulated truck to make a right turn in the right hand lane. I would expect most trucks to approach in the right hand lane and then take a more central position in the roundabout, possibly straddling the lanes on approach to discourage other vehicles getting alongside in their blindspots, rather than keep left which is a recipe for confusion.

Given his position and your comments about signalling I would expect him to be aware that cars were likely to be moving up on his right and to be expecting them to cross his path on the exit, and would argue that the onus was on him to make his intention more clear to other traffic, and to be aware of and be prepared to allow for vehicles exiting the roundabout.

I'd be inclined to agree with ROG that the truck driver caused this collision. Unfortunately your insurers can only go on what they are told about the accident and it will to an extent be your word against his.

At lot will depend on how closely his account matches yours, and you may need to be prepared to stand your ground and argue your case. Were there any independent witnesses? Was it reported to the police?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.410514,-1.4368713,3a,75y,208.38h,71.4t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sY1kY-NI70Jt3MxXYGATbuQ!2e0

WAshburner. If as you describe then the HGV is definitely at fault - there is no reason why he should expect to be able to make a right turn from that left lane...

Get all the details to your insurers and use marked-up printouts from Google Maps to show/illustrate where you and the HGV were on entering the roundabout and where the collision took place.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

WAshburner wrote:...an accident that I really don't believe I had much influence on. My premiums are going shoot through the roof!

Actually there are things you can do to reduce the chances of something like this.

WAshburner wrote:I was in the middle lane pulling onto the roundabout next to the HGV who was in the left lane. I was going straight to come off the roundabout in the outermost lane of the dual carriageway ahead. All other traffic for the dual carriageway was either in the middle or left lanes, as they are when I travel the same route every day for work.
I was all but off the roundabout when the HGV turned in behind me and clipped the back of my car.
...

Expect poor lane discipline from other drivers (it is very common).
Avoid being alongside any vehicle on a roundabout; adjust your speed so that you are slightly behind (or ahead). If using the roundabout to overtake (as you seem to have been doing here), wait behind and don't accelerate past until the nearside vehicle has committed to the exit (i.e. actually started turning into it) - be prepared to follow the nearside vehicle around to the right (either going around again if that won't cut up someone to your right or if necessary going out his exit and re-routing) if he does something silly like this HGV. Better still is to be far enough behind that a touch of brakes (and a nearside mirror check) takes you behind and past on your own exit. Be aware what is offside of you as well, so that you don't get squeezed between two vehicles.

TR4ffic wrote:Get all the details to your insurers and use marked-up printouts from Google Maps to show/illustrate where you and the HGV were on entering the roundabout and where the collision took place.

Good luck and let us know how you get on.

Hi TR4ffic, first thing I did I sent them a host of pictures with explanations and the location of the crash. I imagine it will drag on for a good while - but I will update when I find out more.

michael769 wrote:Unfortunately your insurers can only go on what they are told about the accident and it will to an extent be your word against his.

At lot will depend on how closely his account matches yours, and you may need to be prepared to stand your ground and argue your case. Were there any independent witnesses? Was it reported to the police?

Yep, thankfully I'm more than willing to argue my case all day long! No witnesses who stopped unfortunately (all far to busy! ) and no police called as it wasn't a serious one.

Ancient wrote:

WAshburner wrote:...an accident that I really don't believe I had much influence on. My premiums are going shoot through the roof!

Actually there are things you can do to reduce the chances of something like this.

Good point, I have learned to be even more cautious of other driver's bad judgement/habits than I was already after this!