Winter tyres - 2014

[TripleS]

The size is 195/65 R15 91H - if I recall correctly, and I want tyres that will give a respectable level of grip, long life, low rolling resistance and quiet running. I'm not looking for anything particularly geared to winter conditions, though if there's an all-season contender that could be of interest.

Here are a couple of ideas. You might consider Hankook if you're happy to have XL tyres. Or if you're happy with a lower speed rating, Vredestein are only a little more expensive.

Thanks, Gareth.

Is Fuel Eff. C better than E, or t'other way round?

[Gareth]

what about fitting? Did I imagine it or do some of the online suppliers make the arrangements for home fitting, or do I paddle my own canoe on that score?

Some online vendors do, others such as Camskill don't. I've found a convenient method to find a fitter is to look at the websites of those who do, to find which fitters they use. For example, BlackCircles use Summerfield Garage on the A171 south-east of Whitby.

To your other question, C better than E.

[Custom24]

Time again for one of my favourite topics!

Here we go again...

Never mind that, this is quite timely for me.

I need a new pair of boots for the old Pug 406 front wheels: yes, the front wheels, so don't let's start that 'new tyres should always go on the rear' business again.

...I'm not looking for anything particularly geared to winter conditions, though if there's an all-season contender that could be of interest.

You are not supposed to mix Winter and Summer tyres

"Can I fit winter tyres on one axle and leave my summer tyres on the other?

No. Winter tyre must be fitted in fours. Mixing winter and summer tyres can seriously affect the balance and handling of the vehicle."


"Winter tires should be fitted to all wheel positions, not mixed with all season or summer tires. If only one axle set of winter tires are used, then it is recommended to install them on the rear axle. Placing greater traction on the rear axle is recommended to prevent a possible oversteer condition and loss of vehicle stability on slippery surfaces"

I would think the same applies to All-Season and Summer tyres.

[michael769]

The talk of compounds really began around the time that low rolling resistance tyres became common place. In the past, I believe the only significant difference between M+S and standard tyres was indeed the tread patterns, wheras today's "fuel saving" tyres are significantly harder than used to be the case making compounds more of a issue.

It is certainly the case that the low rolling resistance tyres are often much worse in cold conditions that was the case with traditional "summer" tyres that used to be quite adequate for all but the most remote areas when in the hands of a competent driver.

I suspect the increasing level of interest in winter tyres has much to do with peoples day to day experience of just how awful many cars are on "fuel saving" tyres in bad weather, the problem often being exacerbated by traction control and ESP systems which IME seem to give up the ghost on icy hills!

[trashbat]

I wouldn't care too much about old vs new on front/rear, but in the appropriate conditions, the difference between winter/4S and summer tyres can be so enormous that I wouldn't be happy putting the former on only the front axle. It's not about every day handling, it's the risk of being overtaken by the rear of your own car when you meet low friction surface.

Assuming the wheels are all the same size, just have the tyre place swap them round, and if that small amount is too much to contemplate, give up and use summers.

[michael769]

I'd agree with that. There is a real risk of ending up with significant overseer in slippy conditions.

What makes it worse is that the difference in dry/wet conditions will be negligible for folks who don't generally drive "on the edge", so it would be something that develops quite suddenly an unexpectedly at absolutely the worst time to be encountering handling issues.

At least on the back the under-steer it causes is more manageable, though the downside is that you lose the better traction on icy hills which is why many folks (like me) go for winters.

[TripleS]

OK, I note the latest comments, though they aren't conveying any new information; but would you mind giving me some credit for having driven (and very successfully too) in a very wide range of conditions (including some extremely severe winters) for several decades. Just tone down the forecasts of doom and disaster a bit, eh? Thanks.

[Ancient]

OK, I note the latest comments, though they aren't conveying any new information; but would you mind giving me some credit for having driven (and very successfully too) in a very wide range of conditions (including some extremely severe winters) for several decades. Just tone down the forecasts of doom and disaster a bit, eh? Thanks.

Interestingly 'snow socks' are recommended to be used on the driving wheels, whether front or rear - and they certainly increase the grip! I suppose it's 'cos they are used in actual snow at relatively low speeds ...
OTOH it was quite fun descending in the Prius and needing to take a 120 degree L hander, deciding to use the front wheel grip to slide the back wheels around without slowing too much (from 30mph, on an entirely empty road ).

[TripleS]

OK, I note the latest comments, though they aren't conveying any new information; but would you mind giving me some credit for having driven (and very successfully too) in a very wide range of conditions (including some extremely severe winters) for several decades. Just tone down the forecasts of doom and disaster a bit, eh? Thanks.

Interestingly 'snow socks' are recommended to be used on the driving wheels, whether front or rear - and they certainly increase the grip! I suppose it's 'cos they are used in actual snow at relatively low speeds ...
OTOH it was quite fun descending in the Prius and needing to take a 120 degree L hander, deciding to use the front wheel grip to slide the back wheels around without slowing too much (from 30mph, on an entirely empty road ).

Ah, (another) ancient hooligan. Whatever next!

I had never heard of snow socks until a year or two ago, and they sound quite novel and quite effective; but isn't it a bit of a caper getting them on and off? Also, I understand that you have to remove them pretty soon after getting onto surfaces other than ice/snow, otherwise they wear out pretty quickly, which I suppose is inevitable.

Now, respecting what trashbat and Michael have been saying with regard to changes of balance and handling, does the use of snow socks on front wheels create some of the added difficulties they were warning us about? Is that still a problem, or is it felt that it doesn't matter too much at the lowish speeds applicable to the use of snow socks. I would have thought that getting overtaken by your own rear end could still have quite a bad outcome even at fairly low speed.

[trashbat]

My issue isn't that you've been getting by fine for however long. If you want to stick to summer tyres all round, fine, whatever, same as usual I guess. My issue is the opposite: that you're potentially going to do something new and come a cropper as a result.

As for snow socks, they're an emergency stopgap measure that you don't tend to use at much speed, so I'm less alarmed by that. Winter tyres enable to you proceed in a way approaching normal in very poor conditions, so a higher chance of incident if the front/rear discrepancy does lets you down.

[Custom24]

Now, respecting what trashbat and Michael have been saying with regard to changes of balance and handling...

Ahem...

I had never heard of snow socks until a year or two ago, and they sound quite novel and quite effective; but isn't it a bit of a caper getting them on and off?

Not really. It's fairly easy. I've managed it quite easily even when I've already been stuck in the snow with wheels rotating slowly in the snow and the car stationary. That's harder to put them on than when the car is still able to move. By the way, they were brilliant - I drove out no problem at all up a steep hill.

Also, I understand that you have to remove them pretty soon after getting onto surfaces other than ice/snow, otherwise they wear out pretty quickly, which I suppose is inevitable.

Correct. They are really for getting you out of a bind.

Max speed is 30 mph, but realistically, you're not going to be doing anything near that in conditions where you need them.

[waremark]

I have had satisfactory experience of having tyres supplied and fitted at home by etyres (including my set if 4 winter tyres). Last time I bought tyres they were cheaper at a different online supplier. My favorite local tyre depot could not match the price but agreed for me to have them delivered to the tyre depot and fitted there for an acceptable fee.

On an ice driving course which I attended several times on frozen Swedish lakes as a joke one exercise was to drive on ice with winters on the front and summers in the back. The cars were completely undrivable - full sideways round every bend at 5 mph. Amazing fun, but don't do it.

By the way, we are always told that winters are better when the temperature is below 8 degrees. I have never felt the need except for snow. Recently I have been driving a rather powerful car in a spirited fashion on slippery looking roads using high performance summer tyres at such temperatures. I have had no shortage of grip. The winters are just so I can keep moving on the few genuinely snowy days.

[TripleS]

My issue isn't that you've been getting by fine for however long. If you want to stick to summer tyres all round, fine, whatever, same as usual I guess. My issue is the opposite: that you're potentially going to do something new and come a cropper as a result.

As for snow socks, they're an emergency stopgap measure that you don't tend to use at much speed, so I'm less alarmed by that. Winter tyres enable to you proceed in a way approaching normal in very poor conditions, so a higher chance of incident if the front/rear discrepancy does lets you down.

OK, I don't wish to get into a long argument with you, but I don't entirely share your views on this.

'Potential' is one thing. The likelihood of it becoming a reality is a completely separate matter.

[TripleS]

I have had satisfactory experience of having tyres supplied and fitted at home by etyres (including my set if 4 winter tyres). Last time I bought tyres they were cheaper at a different online supplier. My favorite local tyre depot could not match the price but agreed for me to have them delivered to the tyre depot and fitted there for an acceptable fee.

On an ice driving course which I attended several times on frozen Swedish lakes as a joke one exercise was to drive on ice with winters on the front and summers in the back. The cars were completely undrivable - full sideways round every bend at 5 mph. Amazing fun, but don't do it.

By the way, we are always told that winters are better when the temperature is below 8 degrees. I have never felt the need except for snow. Recently I have been driving a rather powerful car in a spirited fashion on slippery looking roads using high performance summer tyres at such temperatures. I have had no shortage of grip. The winters are just so I can keep moving on the few genuinely snowy days.

Hiya, Mark.

OK, that's useful information to add to what Gareth has said, so thanks for that.

Just as a matter of interest, was the ice driving 'joke' using a car with FWD or RWD? Anyhow, I will admit to taking that seriously for when I make my tyre choice.

Your third paragraph is also interesting, as I do sometimes suspect people make too much fuss about the effects of temperature on tyre behaviour, certainly in the context of low temperatures in winter, e.g. "summer tyres don't work at 7 deg. C or below" etc.

Look guys, let's just accept that we're going to make our own judgements about these matters. I mean, listening to some people you'd think that cars with cross ply tyres and drum brakes, let alone a floor mounted dipswitch, are completely unmanageable. Strangely enough, I didn't find that to be the case.

Oh I accept that long experience doesn't guarantee future immunity from trouble, but it's worth something all the same. Heh, I need to cling onto some basis for optimism.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

Undrivable cars with summers on the back were fwd.

Like Dave I have coped with normal tyres on snow years ago but cannot with modern ones.