Motorcyclists make better car drivers

[martine]

ACPO and the Motorcycle Industry Association want to encourage more motorcyclists...

http://mcia.co.uk/Controls/OpenDocument.ashx?id=72

• Two-wheeled transport offers an antidote to congestion
  
• Motorised two-wheeled transport is particularly effective at keeping traffic moving
  
• The idea that more motorcycles on the road improves rider safety was initially based on European data, which shows that when a greater percentage of traffic is made up of motorcycles, mopeds or scooters, riders are less likely to be involved in a collision
  
• With around 50% of motorcycle collisions initiated by other road users, an effective programme to raise awareness of all road users could considerably reduce the number and seriousness of incidents
  
• There is a growing body of evidence which shows that if more people started their road careers on a motorcycle, scooter or moped, this would lead to improvements in driver behaviour towards all vulnerable road users
  
• It is also acknowledged that motorcyclists make better road users when driving cars.

I've posted this in the general forum as it's relevant to all.

Thoughts?

[Tosh]

Based purely on my own observations I feel that motorcyclists spend a great part of their time when interacting with traffic in places that takes them out of normal traffic flow, at junctions and merge points relying on other people keeping them safe and relying on the acceleration rate to get them through the danger areas they accelerate into. I see little restraint and holding back being exercised by motorcyclists. I feel that if they behaved with a little more consideration for other road users and moved in accordance with the traffic flow instead of blasting through it at a rate three times higher than vehicles around them expecting to be seen and made way for then maybe a few more lives could be saved.

[triquet]

I started on two wheels fifty years ago and has left me with two quite important lessons:

a) I still use the life-saver look over the shoulder, particularly when trying to get onto the A34 via 20 yard long slip roads with zero visibility.
b) I treat the two wheelers with a bit of respect and am quite happy to let them blast past.

But I get REALLY annoyed when the dot matrix exhorts me to THINK BIKE.

[martine]

Based purely on my own observations I feel that motorcyclists spend a great part of their time when interacting with traffic in places that takes them out of normal traffic flow, at junctions and merge points relying on other people keeping them safe and relying on the acceleration rate to get them through the danger areas they accelerate into. I see little restraint and holding back being exercised by motorcyclists. I feel that if they behaved with a little more consideration for other road users and moved in accordance with the traffic flow instead of blasting through it at a rate three times higher than vehicles around them expecting to be seen and made way for then maybe a few more lives could be saved.

Do bear in mind that in over half of RTCs where a bike and another road user are involved it is the other's fault (as recorded by the police) - hence the 'Think Bike' campaigns. Sure there are some mad bikers out there but the good ones often go unnoticed.

[Tosh]

Based purely on my own observations I feel that motorcyclists spend a great part of their time when interacting with traffic in places that takes them out of normal traffic flow, at junctions and merge points relying on other people keeping them safe and relying on the acceleration rate to get them through the danger areas they accelerate into. I see little restraint and holding back being exercised by motorcyclists. I feel that if they behaved with a little more consideration for other road users and moved in accordance with the traffic flow instead of blasting through it at a rate three times higher than vehicles around them expecting to be seen and made way for then maybe a few more lives could be saved.

Do bear in mind that in over half of RTCs where a bike and another road user are involved it is the other's fault (as recorded by the police) - hence the 'Think Bike' campaigns. Sure there are some mad bikers out there but the good ones often go unnoticed.

To flip the coin right over on that point Martin, half of all RTC's involving a motorcycle is initiated by the biker. Yes, there are mad crazy ones but excluding them I still maintain that the other seven tenths of responsible bikers put themselves in harms way. It must be the anonminity of the helmet and the acceleration power that creates a sense of invulnerability that makes them so unaware of the actual danger that they are in just by being on the road, never mind even doing something stupid and putting themselves in harms way. The responsibility does need to be shared. Think Bike of course but the biker needs to realise he is not Streethawk but a grown adult who really should know better.

[Carbon Based]

I'd happily suggest that more road users should use a variety of vehicles to understand just what effect/interaction they have with others.

Time spent on public roads on a bicycle, horse, motorbike as well as driving cars and lorries could all be part of learning to drive.

[martine]

To flip the coin right over on that point Martin, half of all RTC's involving a motorcycle is initiated by the biker. Yes, there are mad crazy ones but excluding them I still maintain that the other seven tenths of responsible bikers put themselves in harms way. It must be the anonminity of the helmet and the acceleration power that creates a sense of invulnerability that makes them so unaware of the actual danger that they are in just by being on the road, never mind even doing something stupid and putting themselves in harms way. The responsibility does need to be shared. Think Bike of course but the biker needs to realise he is not Streethawk but a grown adult who really should know better.

Yes sure but it's your generalisations that I disagree with...there are good bikers and bad ones...there's about 30,000 current IAM advanced bikers for a start. I reiterate, the good ones go unnoticed.

Have you ever ridden a motorbike? The reason I ask is because sometimes non-bikers have a skewed impression of what is and is not dangerous on bikes. Many car drivers think it is absolutely illegal to filter in traffic for instance (not suggesting you do btw) - others think bikes can't stop as quickly as a car etc.

ACPO think there are a lot of benefits to promoting biking...

[Tosh]

I do accept your point about motorcycles having different capabilities and characteristics than that of a car and there are those who do use it to their advantage to make safe progress. To me they don't go unnoticed. They are the ones I remember. I will always look out for bikes and cycles and respect those who show consideration for others and ride responsibly. I love to see progression with real awareness. As I had earlier said, based on my observations they sadly are in the minority.

[trashbat]

One thing I can tell you: I can't remember the last time I was inconvenienced or endangered by a proper motorcyclist.

[sussex2]

Before the dawn of time when I was mad enough to teach ab initio drivers I found that motorcyclists often had trouble adapting to car driving.
I can't generalise but it was something I noticed and was often to with spacial awareness and handling of such things as the gearbox. There was often what seemed a reliance on reaction rather than planning.
I would agree with the other respondent that there has been no recent occasion when a 'real' motorcyclist compromised my safety. I would say the same of HGV drivers as well.

[akirk]

A very interesting document - thank you for posting the link...

My very non-technical, personal persepctive on motorcycles (and I have never been on one) is that there is a very clear and noticeable polarised split amongst motorcyclists between some very good riders, and some who are terrible...

I am very aware of them - particularly as one of my main routes I drive is also a 'bikers road' you can see those who are mature and sensible - they ride with space around them - they hold back until ready to overtake - they use the bike's power wisely and appropriately etc. - I have a lot of respect for them and will very often give them space in advance etc. (and you can spot their riding style from quite a distance back as they approach)...

sadly there is another group - they believe that filtering also includes at 70-80 mph, inches between cars and lorries on the motorway (last weekend), that the power of their bike trumps everything (I forget the number of times that I have had to use hand signals dispite indicators and road positioning showing that I am about to overtake the car in front of me and now would not be a good to time to go past me), that the power of their bike is still better than anything else (the rider who did overtake me even though I was already overtaking another car - on a country lane, and no, there wasn't room, I had to compensate to stop him hitting the curb - he then nearly crashed again 1/2 a mile later!), the ones who believe that 100+ through blind corners isn't a problem (a number of deaths on that local road), etc. etc.

the common thread to the latter group is arrogance and powerful bikes - not a good mix, and sadly not unusual around here... I would advocate that no rider can use a bike over XXXcc without advanced training - there are too many idiots on bikes - yes, there idiots in cars as well, but the bike somehow seems to lead them to taking greater risks at higher speeds...

I love watching a really good rider managing a line of traffic, and I have seen some who are amazing - they seemed to subliminally get the cars to move around to where they wanted them! but the bad ones are horrific - and don't get me started on London riders!

Alasdair

[zadocbrown]

My initial thought is that it shows the folly of trusting statistics without due scepticism. We are constantly told motorcyclists have a sky high casualty rate and now we are told more of them will increase safety? We are gullible enough to believe anything if a few numbers are spouted at us.....

For a start, 'blame' as recorded by the police is a poor reflection of the complexity of causation, so any calculation based on those figures should be regarded as incomplete.

[sussex2]

'For a start, 'blame' as recorded by the police is a poor reflection of the complexity of causation, so any calculation based on those figures should be regarded as incomplete.
zadocbrown'.

Exactly!

[trashbat]

My initial thought is that it shows the folly of trusting statistics without due scepticism. We are constantly told motorcyclists have a sky high casualty rate and now we are told more of them will increase safety? We are gullible enough to believe anything if a few numbers are spouted at us.....

I suspect everything in the opening post is true.

If everyone on the road had some experience handling every form of conveyance, from pushbikes and horses to HGVs, they would have a better understanding and empathy for all of the other road users that they met. Overall incident rates for those that went back to their original primary form of transport would probably be improved thanks to the lessons learnt, especially with regard to vulnerable road users.

However it doesn't mean that we should start letting ponies & traps onto the M25, and to be fair to the source, I don't think the motorbike equivalent is necessarily being suggested.

[michael769]

My initial thought is that it shows the folly of trusting statistics without due scepticism. We are constantly told motorcyclists have a sky high casualty rate and now we are told more of them will increase safety?

It is less to do with the actual stats and more to how they are presented (or even misused). Any claim of "sky high" casualty rates is simply exaggerated and overblown.

It is true that motorcyclists have quite a bit more serious collisions than cars do when adjusted for the relative miles they do, but the vast majority of motorcyclists manage to do many thousands of miles without incident, and I would argue that motorcycling is, on the whole a safe activity in the grand scheme of things. It may be a little less safe than driving a car but not to the extent of justifying comments such as "organ donors".

But I would be equally wary of assuming that it is the act of motorcycling that makes motorcyclists less likely to crash in a car (assuming there is a stats that says that). That phenomena could be due to many things.

For example motorcyclists are more likely to be motoring enthusiasts and this invest more effort in developing their skills generally, certainly in my RoADAR group motorcyclists are over-represented in the cars side. They also probably do more miles and thus gain more experience on the roads more quickly and maintain that experience more effectively.

There is no guarantee that if we did get "mr/mrs average" to take up motorcycling that this would translate to a higher level of engagement and skill development, and thus no reason to think that an increase in motorcycling take up by more average travelers would translate to a reduction in car casualties. it could in fact be counter productive if the average level of motorcylist skills and enthusiasm is reduced one could see an increase in casualty rates.

It would be far better to investigate in detail why motorcyclists have fewer car casualties and find ways to get those factors to apply to the bulk of drivers than it is to blindly assume that correlation equals causation, and try to encourage folks to take up an activity that most average travelers would not go near with a bargepole.