20 limits (split from rodk introduction)

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Postby Pontoneer » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:27 am


WhoseGeneration wrote:
waremark wrote: (So I was told when attending my second !!! speed awareness course - is it brave or foolish of me to admit that here?


It's honest and to be applauded but also gives ammunition to those who argue for ever lower limits if such as you, with all your interest and credentials in AD, can "offend".


I think we all can offend , even if we try our best not to , few can put hand on heart and say they 'never' speed , even unintentionally and just for a moment . Most just haven't been caught .

BTW , no speed awareness courses here in Scotland !
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Postby revian » Thu Aug 13, 2015 8:54 am


Pontoneer wrote:
WhoseGeneration wrote:
waremark wrote: (So I was told when attending my second !!! speed awareness course - is it brave or foolish of me to admit that here?


It's honest and to be applauded but also gives ammunition to those who argue for ever lower limits if such as you, with all your interest and credentials in AD, can "offend".


I think we all can offend , even if we try our best not to , few can put hand on heart and say they 'never' speed , even unintentionally and just for a moment . Most just haven't been caught .

BTW , no speed awareness courses here in Scotland !

To be fair there is the Whisky Trail... :wink:
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Postby revian » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:17 am


akirk wrote:perhaps we need a pressure group called 'Free to be Safe'
advocating intelligence in driving - safety for all and promoting the use of the road network by all users equally - cyclists / horses / pedestrians / cars / lorries /etc. with freedom to do as you wish within the constraint of the roads being used by all and for all...

a major problem we have in this country is that people identify with a specific group and then form pressure groups based on a totally skewed perspective focused around their identified needs at the expense of all others... I am constantly amazed at how people identify themselves as a cyclist / a motorist / etc. - surely we are simply humans who at different times might cycle / drive / etc. - I don't often drive a lorry, but am and have been since childhood a regular member of all those other groups, so I have seen the road from horseback / bicycle / walking / driving - and from any perspective there are idiots in all groups and 90%+ sensible members of all groups who are considerate to each other...

we are heading into an era worse than communism - where the communistic idealism is imposed by those who are unelected / have no remit / but are clever with words and have too much time... government is meant to take the bigger picture and understand how it ties to together for all groups - sadly that seems to happen less and less

Alasdair


Chord struck here... But resisting off-topic groan :roll:
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Postby Ancient » Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:44 am


Kimosabe wrote:...improving road safety ie reducing KSIs..l.

That is the standard measure that many used historically. Nowadays it is becoming clear that it is not a good measure of safety. I take it you've read John Adams' 'Risk'?
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Postby martine » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:00 am


waremark wrote:
fengpo wrote:I agree completely of course further driver trainer works, if the individual undertaking the training let's it work. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous to my probably flawed logic.

I believe that the IAM has several times set out to show an accident reduction from their training and has never succeeded. I wish it were otherwise. I hope that data from the IAM Surety scheme will show a lower claims ratio from IAM members than from a comparable group of non members but if there was good statistical evidence available I expect we would have seen it. Surety offer competitive premiums for a large proportion of members but this could well be the case for any large affinity scheme,

The IAM insurer confirmed the following a few years ago...

  • IAM Car drivers have a similar number of claims but the claim value is smaller
  • IAM Bikers have an increased number and value of claims but their mileage is higher than the average
Martin - Bristol IAM: IMI National Observer and Group Secretary, DSA: ADI, Fleet, RoSPA (Dip)
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Postby martine » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:06 am


akirk wrote:...we are heading into an era worse than communism - where the communistic idealism is imposed by those who are unelected / have no remit / but are clever with words and have too much time... government is meant to take the bigger picture and understand how it ties to together for all groups - sadly that seems to happen less and less

Getting dangerously close to fulfilling Godwin's law there... :)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law
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Postby sussex2 » Thu Aug 13, 2015 11:56 am


martine wrote:
waremark wrote:
fengpo wrote:I agree completely of course further driver trainer works, if the individual undertaking the training let's it work. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous to my probably flawed logic.

I believe that the IAM has several times set out to show an accident reduction from their training and has never succeeded. I wish it were otherwise. I hope that data from the IAM Surety scheme will show a lower claims ratio from IAM members than from a comparable group of non members but if there was good statistical evidence available I expect we would have seen it. Surety offer competitive premiums for a large proportion of members but this could well be the case for any large affinity scheme,

The IAM insurer confirmed the following a few years ago...

  • IAM Car drivers have a similar number of claims but the claim value is smaller
  • IAM Bikers have an increased number and value of claims but their mileage is higher than the average


I wonder if the results would be different if the IAM had gone down the road of compulsory re tests?
I'm not bothered about the old Romanians and Bulgarians but the Old Etonians scare me rigid.
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Postby Gareth » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:31 pm


martine wrote:
  • IAM Car drivers have a similar number of claims but the claim value is smaller

At first blush that appears to suggest that the IAM car course encourages drivers to slow down when approaching hazards to the extent that, on average, they will be traveling slower than would other car drivers from the wider population.
there is only the road, nothing but the road ...
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Postby jont » Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:34 pm


Pontoneer wrote:
WhoseGeneration wrote:
waremark wrote: (So I was told when attending my second !!! speed awareness course - is it brave or foolish of me to admit that here?


It's honest and to be applauded but also gives ammunition to those who argue for ever lower limits if such as you, with all your interest and credentials in AD, can "offend".


I think we all can offend , even if we try our best not to , few can put hand on heart and say they 'never' speed , even unintentionally and just for a moment . Most just haven't been caught .

Indeed, but as the limits have ever less to do with hazard density, more and more will be caught. And of course we have created an industry that relies on this to continue to exist/grow.

Surely if speed cameras were actually effective [at reducing speeds], the numbers of people caught would have dropped to 0 by now?
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Postby Carbon Based » Thu Aug 13, 2015 1:37 pm


sussex2 wrote:I wonder if the results would be different if the IAM had gone down the road of compulsory re tests?


If you could get a breakdown by SFL or Masters you might be able to get the results you are interested in.
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Postby waremark » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:26 pm


martine wrote:The IAM insurer confirmed the following a few years ago...

  • IAM Car drivers have a similar number of claims but the claim value is smaller
  • IAM Bikers have an increased number and value of claims but their mileage is higher than the average

If this is true, why are their initial car insurance quotes almost invariably uncompetitive? It would be nice to learn much more about the stats.
Last edited by Mr Cholmondeley-Warner on Thu Aug 13, 2015 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: fix quote markers
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Postby martine » Thu Aug 13, 2015 2:54 pm


waremark wrote:If this is true, why are their initial car insurance quotes almost invariably uncompetitive? It would be nice to learn much more about the stats.

Because it's common practice across the industry - it maximises their profits if people don't query it.
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Postby sussex2 » Fri Aug 14, 2015 8:41 am


Carbon Based wrote:
sussex2 wrote:I wonder if the results would be different if the IAM had gone down the road of compulsory re tests?


If you could get a breakdown by SFL or Masters you might be able to get the results you are interested in.


It was just an idle thought :)
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Postby Garrison » Tue Aug 18, 2015 11:55 pm


20 mph limits around the few blocks where I live but I wouldn't be driving more than 20 at any time of the day due to the hazards and environment.

However, I disagree with 20 mph limit on Gower Street from UCL Hospital heading south towards British Museum (part of my daily commute). There are 3 lanes with very few hazard and quiet environment on my drive to work in the morning at 05.30 so the previous 30 mph limit appear reasonable. In the evening commute, you'll be lucky to reach 20 mph as it is more like stop-start traffic.
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Postby TripleS » Wed Aug 19, 2015 8:37 am


Garrison wrote:20 mph limits around the few blocks where I live but I wouldn't be driving more than 20 at any time of the day due to the hazards and environment.

However, I disagree with 20 mph limit on Gower Street from UCL Hospital heading south towards British Museum (part of my daily commute). There are 3 lanes with very few hazard and quiet environment on my drive to work in the morning at 05.30 so the previous 30 mph limit appear reasonable. In the evening commute, you'll be lucky to reach 20 mph as it is more like stop-start traffic.


I don't know that area, but it does sound like an example of a 20 mph limit that, like most of them I suppose, is permanent when in truth it isn't always appropriate.

The system used around schools in Scotland seems to me to be far more sensible: the 20 mph limit only applies when the lights flash, which is probably for two fairly brief periods each weekday during term time.
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