20 limits (split from rodk introduction)

[akirk]

Why do councillors think that blanket 20 limits on through routes will be popular (as politicians they would not impose them if they did not think that)?

Sadly I don't think this is entirely how politics works now... we seem to be in an era of politics run to re-elect... so it is all about short term soundbites and apparent solutions...

Putting in a 20mph philosophy allows councillors to say: 'look at us we have dealt with speeding / we have dealt with road hazards / we have sorted it all out' - it is a quick paint job over a rotten core - dealing with symptoms, not the actual issues...

As the case posted by Rod shows, even in that 20mph area the driver would have been too fast at 20mph, the issue was the driver, not the limit - but while we all know that driver training is the only answer to the issues being dealt with, it is not politically expedient - it is a slow, long term process with no quick signs of action, and expensive with no ground swell of support...

you can impose a 20mph limit and anyone who disagrees is tarred as being a destructive planet and child killing tyrrant who just wishes to speed - and you can easily punish people for breaching the limit...

to impose driver training is very very much more challenging - and politicians at any level don't have the desire to do the job properly if they can pretend that they have done it sufficiently...

it is sadly the pattern we are seeing through our whole country...

Alasdair

[rodk]

Do you drive, RodK? have you had any further driver training beyond the DSA test?

I did introduce myself . See it on the introductions page. The answers to your questions are yes and no. Does that pose a problem?

[Horse]

Surely it's a bit of overstatement to say that education doesn't work?

Sadly, there is very little scientific evidence of training 'working' - a proven improvement in safety - but plenty to show it not working. The UK Hazard Perception Test is credited with an 11% reduction in crashes, and is a rare example.

But that's another thread if someone wants to start it.

[sussex2]

I believe that a problem with the 20mph limit as implemented generally in the UK is that many road users (all classes) cannot see the use in it.
They have such limits in other countries (even 20kph ones) but they are mostly backed up by additional requirements or information. This may be a need for all vehicles to give absolute priority to pedestrians, more frequent (but much more simple) crossing places etc etc..
In the UK we have narrowed roads, reduced speed limits, and set everything else up except the priority system.

If I knew how to get a photo from Dropbox to here I would show a sign that litters many EU towns and cities.
A sign which is probably superfluous as the system of who gives way to whom is already ingrained.

[revian]

Surely it's a bit of overstatement to say that education doesn't work?

Sadly, there is very little scientific evidence of training 'working' - a proven improvement in safety - but plenty to show it not working. The UK Hazard Perception Test is credited with an 11% reduction in crashes, and is a rare example.

But that's another thread if someone wants to start it.

As an ex-apprentice whose training 'worked'... It would indeed ...but I'm out of energy...

Another day, another thread, maybe...

Ian

[Horse]

Surely it's a bit of overstatement to say that education doesn't work?

Sadly, there is very little scientific evidence of training 'working' - a proven improvement in safety - but plenty to show it not working. The UK Hazard Perception Test is credited with an 11% reduction in crashes, and is a rare example.

But that's another thread if someone wants to start it.

As an ex-apprentice whose training 'worked'... It would indeed ...but I'm out of energy...

Another day, another thread, maybe...

I posted a thruway comment that it's 'difficult to prove training 'works'' on another board, was asked for proof so provided it, then suffered 6 pages of vitriole as a result You think you need the energy

[H scuttles off into the interweb . . . ]

To save some time:
http://bam-members.org.uk/forum/viewtop ... f=6&t=1870
Third post, then 8 pages!

[Ancient]

[lots of sensible stuff] A 1950s or 1960 housing development normally has straight, wide-ish roads that support a 30mph limit.
[lots more sensible stuff]

True, but often spoiled by on-road parking which cuts the effective width and sight-lines (usually) badly enough to make even 20 an unsafe speed.

[sussex2]

If we are to look at this subject I can't help feeling that we have to begin at the beginning. We have to look at driver training in the very early stages; by the time a driver has a few thousand miles or a couple of years under their belt the dangerous practices are well embedded.
If you try to change these practices (except for the few who chose to or are obliged to) you will be pretty much on a hiding to nothing; trust me I tried it for years and long ago decided to give it up

[Kimosabe]

Speed limits do not cause drivers to drive within speed limits, abilities and penalties do.

Blanket limits and Penalties = Stick.
Education and Rewards = Carrot.

The former forces obedience upon people who generally do nothing more "unsafe" than BGOL, the latter causes people to learn, reconsider and improve.

Just because I have a desire to change the way I drive (purely through interest, than through need), doesn't mean that anyone else who doesn't is some kind of driving clown, who has no clue about what they're doing. That attitude is patronising, to say the least. No doubt there are council offices full of people who need to justify their existence, by exceeding targets set by other council office wallahs, before next year's council budgets and that situation is what is causing such busybody interference with road speed limits. Does this guff improve 'road safety'? Don't know about where you live but not in Brighton and Hove it doesn't. People here crash because they're not planning ahead, not thinking about driving or are distracted, not because they're still doing 26mph in a new 20 zone. Even if they were driving at 20mph, they'd still not plan, think and would be distracted. Infact i'd say that at 20mph, you can text far more comfortably while driving, than at 30! So short of putting speed traps on every road, which i'm sure SRPs would just love to see, driver education must be the solution.

Why does that seem so obvious to me?

[Silk]

Why do councillors think that blanket 20 limits on through routes will be popular...?

Probably because they know the group of people who are most likely to vote have a higher than average proportion of non-driving busy-bodies?

Let's be honest, how many normal people can be bothered voting for their local councillor? Perhaps idiot schemes such as blanket 20mph speed limits may persuade more people to get involved in local politics and vote these fools out at the first opportunity.

[akirk]

the problem is that we know there is little desire for driver education:
- from drivers who see no need
- from politicians who see it as too long term and expensive

therefore there is a tendancy to say that it doesn't work as an excuse to not have to do it... - well of course, if you don't do it, there is no positive result!

I also fail to understand anyone who says that training / education doesn't work...
doesn't matter what you call it - but no-one learns any skill / gains any ability other than by some form of progression, whether self-motivated or externally imposed - how anyone thinks that a human goes from child with no ability to drive to adult capable of driving without some form of progression is most bizarre - and it is equally logical that to continue that progression is to become more capable / to widen that progression is to become richer in capability - if there is an issue with people not driving safely in an urban area, then quite simply it is not sufficiently embedded in the progression expected before a licence is granted - so add it.

Alasdair

[Silk]

Do you drive, RodK? have you had any further driver training beyond the DSA test?

I did introduce myself . See it on the introductions page. The answers to your questions are yes and no. Does that pose a problem?

When I first saw your introduction, I wasn't really sure how to respond. Part of me says that we should be civilised and engage you in debate and the other part of me says that you should be put in the stocks and be pelted with rotten fruit. The thing is, I don't believe either will have any effect, although the latter may be more satisfying.

In answer to your question, yes it does pose a problem because I would expect those in a position to influence such things to be better informed.

[TripleS]

Do you drive, RodK? have you had any further driver training beyond the DSA test?

I did introduce myself . See it on the introductions page. The answers to your questions are yes and no. Does that pose a problem?

When I first saw your introduction, I wasn't really sure how to respond. Part of me says that we should be civilised and engage you in debate and the other part of me says that you should be put in the stocks and be pelted with rotten fruit. The thing is, I don't believe either will have any effect, although the latter may be more satisfying.

In answer to your question, yes it does pose a problem because I would expect those in a position to influence such things to be better informed.

....and in many cases you'll end up disappointed.

Actually having some understanding of the key factors involved is not what matters now: it appears that an emotive portrayal of the problem, and being able to spin a good yarn, is what counts.

[fengpo]

I agree completely of course further driver trainer works, if the individual undertaking the training let's it work. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous to my probably flawed logic.

[vonhosen]

I agree completely of course further driver trainer works, if the individual undertaking the training let's it work. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous to my probably flawed logic.

It rather depends on the content of the training & it's delivery/quality.
Training can actually make matters worse.

That brings us on to how much training out there has the right content & delivery/quality, as well as just because we believe it's the right stuff it doesn't follow that it actually is. Our personal bias can mask the reality. What does the evidence show?