Give Way Markings on Major Roads and Roundabouts

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Postby sulligogs » Mon Sep 14, 2009 9:08 pm


Hi,

I've recently passed my driving test, but every now and then I get curious about certain aspects of the Highway Code and road markings.

For instance, why are there double broken lines on entrances to major roads, but only single broken lines on entrances to roundabouts? Wouldn't it make the driver's life easier to have 'give way' markings the same on all roads?

Additionally, when exiting a major road into a minor road there is a single broken line, but when exiting a roundabout there is no line at all. Doesn't this defy logic?

By the way, good luck to everyone taking the tests soon.

Sulligogs
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Postby fungus » Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:08 pm


Hi sulligogs, and welcome to the forum,

You've recently passed your test and your puzzled by some of the road markings used by local authorities. It gets no better after forty years.

Seriously though, I personaly think that road markings need simplifying. Why is it necessary for instance, to have a mini roundabout with single broken lines one two approaches and the other approach marked with a normal double broken line? I'm sure someone will be along soon to to explain in more detail why we need so many.

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Postby sulligogs » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:23 pm


Hi fungus!

Thanks for sharing my pain! It was only after passing my test that I realised this lack of uniformity. I went for a drive on my own and came to a roundabout to go third exit right. However, that exit was one way out as I realised there was a single broken line across it, so I then carried on indicating left to the next exit left.

Okay, the single broken line stopped me from going the wrong way up a road, but on a major road exiting to a minor road, the single broken line is what you look for. Why oh why use opposite rules?

Oh well, thanks again for replying!

Sulligogs
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Postby 7db » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:48 pm


Hello.

There are different markings to denote different meanings.

The standard give way double lines (1003) has a strict meaning:- you mustn't cross it so as to endanger a driver or passenger of another vehicle or to cause another vehicle to change course or speed to avoid an accident. There are some subtleties about when used in a narrowing road (eg traffic calming), but it's used when meeting a major road. These are outlined in TSRGD Reg 25.

The roundabout give way (1003.1 and 1003.3 - mini) is different (but apparently similar) -- it demands that you give way at or just beyond it to traffic already on the roundabout. 1003.3 must appear with the roundabout upright (611.1) and means give way to traffic to the right / already in the junction.

The difference is that one references a minor to major change (the major traffic always has priority) -- the other is a series of equal roads which yield to traffic on the junction. Traffic on the other roads does not have a right of way unless it is in the junction first.

Additionally - and this is genuinely confusing, but highly practical - where the layout of a mini roundabout is particularly "straight" for one approach, the regular give way might be used to emphasise the need to yield at the junction. A give way upright and double lines are used in that instance.


The single line that you cross when entering a minor road helps you understand that you are moving from one road to another and must yield to traffic (and pedestrians!) already in that road -- notice the similarity here with the roundabout. As you join a new road (minor, circulating one on a RAB) you yield where there is conflict with the established path of another vehicle.

HTH
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Postby 7db » Mon Sep 14, 2009 11:52 pm


sulligogs wrote:Additionally, when exiting a major road into a minor road there is a single broken line, but when exiting a roundabout there is no line at all. Doesn't this defy logic?


Sorry - didn't address this. No point having a line -- there's no conflict possible so nothing to give way to!

Pedestrians -- beware crossing at roundabout exits.
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Postby waremark » Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:35 am


Sulligogs, you are showing that you are a very unusual driver by noticing these details. Well done. You have the makings of a good advanced driver in due course.
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Postby Octy_Ross » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:02 am


waremark wrote:Sulligogs, you are showing that you are a very unusual driver by noticing these details. Well done. You have the makings of a good advanced driver in due course.


I'd never paid that much attention to all the paint, damit I'll have to start now :(

Further to Marks point above, Sulligogs, if you're not too far away, why not mosey on down to the Andover advanced driving taster day on the 10th Oct ? Panda Chris, sorry, Scooby Chris is arranging it, so it should be a good day.

Ross.
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Postby 7db » Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:50 pm


At lunchtime we can play a game of I-spy line trivia as well.
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Postby TripleS » Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:10 pm


7db wrote:
HTH


Yes thanks, David. It helped to give me a headache! Honestly, I admire your capacity to study all this stuff, and remember what it is all about, but it really is far too complicated.

We really don't need all this complexity, and I suspect it is dreamt up by people seeking to create jobs for themselves. :evil:

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby fungus » Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:46 pm


My thoughts exactly Dave,

I have never understood the need to complicate things. Surely the more simple a set of rules, the more they will be understood by everyone, pedestrians, cyclists, and all.

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Postby 7db » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:31 pm


In what sense is it complicated? When you cross a dotted white line you have to beware. A double one doubly so.
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Postby sulligogs » Tue Sep 15, 2009 10:42 pm


7db wrote:Hello.

There are different markings to denote different meanings.

The standard give way double lines (1003) has a strict meaning:- you mustn't cross it so as to endanger a driver or passenger of another vehicle or to cause another vehicle to change course or speed to avoid an accident. There are some subtleties about when used in a narrowing road (eg traffic calming), but it's used when meeting a major road. These are outlined in TSRGD Reg 25.

The roundabout give way (1003.1 and 1003.3 - mini) is different (but apparently similar) -- it demands that you give way at or just beyond it to traffic already on the roundabout. 1003.3 must appear with the roundabout upright (611.1) and means give way to traffic to the right / already in the junction.

The difference is that one references a minor to major change (the major traffic always has priority) -- the other is a series of equal roads which yield to traffic on the junction. Traffic on the other roads does not have a right of way unless it is in the junction first.

Additionally - and this is genuinely confusing, but highly practical - where the layout of a mini roundabout is particularly "straight" for one approach, the regular give way might be used to emphasise the need to yield at the junction. A give way upright and double lines are used in that instance.


The single line that you cross when entering a minor road helps you understand that you are moving from one road to another and must yield to traffic (and pedestrians!) already in that road -- notice the similarity here with the roundabout. As you join a new road (minor, circulating one on a RAB) you yield where there is conflict with the established path of another vehicle.

HTH


Thanks for everyone's input! I see it caused it quite a stir :P

7db - I found your reference to the TSRGD in Google and got to The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 and I must say it is extremely extensive. Obviously, it is written in a strictly formal manner so as not to be misinterpreted, but I think that at least the regulations you have kindly rephrased should be set out next to the Highway Code.

Octy_Ross wrote:I'd never paid that much attention to all the paint, damit I'll have to start now :(

Further to Marks point above, Sulligogs, if you're not too far away, why not mosey on down to the Andover advanced driving taster day on the 10th Oct ? Panda Chris, sorry, Scooby Chris is arranging it, so it should be a good day.

Ross.


I live in Birmingham, Octy_Ross. I think Andover is still quite a bit out of my depth right now. I've been saying to myself to get up early on a Sunday morning and get on the A45 to join the M42 for a couple of junctions and see how I feel. I've only ever driven once at 60mph on a single carriageway that permitted it with my driving instructor and I loved it. Still, I was too nervous to realise the signs and my driving instructor had to prompt me to slow down and indicate to get off safely.

I just got a Fiat Punto R reg by the way. No power steering :x

Thanks for everyone's time.

Sulligogs
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Postby waremark » Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:00 am


sulligogs wrote:I think Andover is still quite a bit out of my depth right now. I've been saying to myself to get up early on a Sunday morning and get on the A45 to join the M42 for a couple of junctions and see how I feel. I've only ever driven once at 60mph on a single carriageway that permitted it with my driving instructor and I loved it. Still, I was too nervous to realise the signs and my driving instructor had to prompt me to slow down and indicate to get off safely.

Are you going to do Pass Plus with an instructor? It is possible that your insurance company will give you a reduction which will pay for all or most of the course, but it is probably worth doing anyway.

Whether or not you intend to do Pass Plus, I strongly suggest that you ask a family member or friend who is an experienced driver to accompany you for a first venture on faster roads and on different types of roads.
After my sons passed their tests, I accompanied them on their first motorway journeys, leaving and rejoining the motorway at each exit (but you have to know that it is possible to rejoin, because there are some exits where you cannot get back on!).

I shan't try to give you a motorway driving lesson here, but can I offer one piece of advice for driving on multi-lane roads? Keep adjusting your speed as necessary to ensure that there is plenty of empty space all round your car - in front of you, behind you, and alongside you.

All the best, Mark
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Postby TripleS » Wed Sep 16, 2009 2:31 pm


7db wrote:In what sense is it complicated? When you cross a dotted white line you have to beware. A double one doubly so.


On that basis it is only a matter of time before somebody will think it necessary to introduce a triple version for when things are a bit more difficult still; and then a while later, when a situation is really really really hazardous we'll have a quadruple version.

I appreciate that you may have been talking only about a particular usage of dotted linework in this case, but the whole regime of road markings, in addition to the multitude of signs, has grown enormously since I started driving. Maybe some drivers do maintain familiarity with it all, and find it helpful, but I find very little of it is any help whatsoever, and I honestly wonder how many drivers would feel disadvantaged if most of it were to be removed.

It is not inconceivable that in areas where we have a lot of signs and road markings, there is some risk of road users paying too much attention to the signs/paintwork, and not spotting and dealing with the actual hazards.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
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Postby fungus » Wed Sep 16, 2009 11:17 pm


I was going to reply to 7db but had a problem with the computor.

I think Dave has said it all. We need to simplify, not add more and more markings.

If your driving in the country and you notice farm buildings, do you realy need road signs to tell you that there is the possibility of the farmer driving a tractor with a muck spreader behind. Or moving animals from one field across the road to another.

As Dave said, on the basis of the more lines the greater the hazard, how would you read an unmarked cross roads? As most drivers would treat them with extreme caution, I think it shows that we do not need a host of various markings, just a few simple lines. Eg. one simple stop line. One simple double broken give way line. Hazard, Centre, Lane markings, and solid lines as at present. Hatched areas are certainly over used, and quite often awkwardly shaped, not allowing a driver to enter a right turn lane with room to position the car correctly as they take up a lot of road before the lane breaks off. As for the argument that they protect traffic turning right, thats nonsense. If a following driver can't see a vehicle turning right, a hatch marking is going to make no difference.

If we carry on like like this, having to have a sign to warn us of the least little thing, road safety will be in a sorry state as we will have drivers who will not use their eyes to look, but will be relying on signs to tell them that there is a farm ahead, and there just might be a tractor around the next bend.

Nigel, even grumpier ADI. It must be my age. Had a birthday last week.
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