The brake gear overlap

[GJD]

Perhaps the OP's Observer doesn't know rev matching, which would be disappointing but not unlikely.

Seriously? I thought "thou shalt rev match your gear changes" was as fundamental as "thou shalt use P-P steering".

[jcochrane]

Will hopefully be at Oxford so will raise it again then.

Got a ROSPA session this afternoon so will have a bash then. This is a different tutor to the one above but he does drive an auto so hasn't really mentioned much about brake gear separation. Good in other parts though.

Look forward to seeing you in Oxford. I or, I am sure, one of the others will be happy to help if we can.

[TR4ffic]

...It's a slower way of turning and it unnecessarily holds up traffic behind.

Are you only referring to turning in at junctions?

I know there are exceptions with downhill U bends and the like but, generally, out on the open road there shouldn't be any need to BGOL... As for the use of BGOL for turning in at junctions, even Roadcraft embraces it...

For me, FWIW, it's BGOL* for turning in at junctions (irrespective of following or approaching traffic). Separation for everything else.

* That's with the right foot back on the gas and revs matched before the clutch starts to come up, and both hands on the wheel before the turn in.

[jcochrane]

.... whilst slavish adherence to one specific method will work, sometimes it's just so clumsy) but I have a fairly large issue with people not doing the slowing down bit properly. The problem is that drivers will start slowing when they have no idea what the final speed needs to be, under the auspices of 'good acceleration sense' so you either get a rising rate of deceleration as the view improves or you've lost so much speed that you're holding those behind up.

I agree, I had an " interesting discussion" with an IAM examiner on this and we failed to reach an agreement.

[sussex2]

It all depends on situation and ability. Is the control of the vehicle compromised or not.
The question is as simple as that.

[Rick101]

Yes this is specifically at junctions.

[Zebedee]

Roadcraft suggests overlapping when turning at junctions, if you've got a vehicle close behind, because this avoids holding up or confusing traffic behind you.

There's a section in Roadcraft about when to brake/gear overlap. You might find this helpful to read.

[zadocbrown]

Roadcraft suggests overlapping when turning at junctions, if you've got a vehicle close behind, because this avoids holding up or confusing traffic behind you.

There's a section in Roadcraft about when to brake/gear overlap. You might find this helpful to read.

And unlike IAM, Rospa use Roadcraft as their manual, so you shouldn't be penalized for driving as outlined in that book.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

The section is not about "when to BGOL", it's about "when BGOL may be appropriate". RoADAR examiners vary, but on the whole the ones I've talked to are in favour of separation and mark according to their own history and preferences. Because the test is graded, I think there's a good possibility that someone who overlapped often in situations that didn't absolutely need it, might find themselves getting a lower grade than if they didn't. I try and teach my associates to separate. Once they have the habit, they can reproduce it on test, and they have gained more time to approach hazards in a controlled manner.

[Carbon Based]

Thinking out loud, so this may come out a bit jumbled…

I like the idea proposed that it is a good way of ensuring that the braking element is completed sufficiently and early. Something I had a lot of room for improvement on and continue to work at.

However I drive an automatic, albeit mostly in manual mode so I don’t have a clutch to worry about. But that means no way of block changing myself. So given that I could be happily trundling along at 60, on a long straight that means 6th, 7th or even coasting is a possibility. For a sharp bend or junction I could be looking for 2nd. Click, click, click, click, click, click and away.

But the timing of those clicks on the paddle is something that concerned me. So I did have a few conversations with observers and my IAM examiner - all came with the same answer - drive the car as it is designed to be driven, and in that case, work through the gears. You can argue that half those changes are to simply get from a kind of overdrive gear to a responsive one. (which is where I’m more likely to be on a twisty road anyway).

By comparison, if left in auto, even in sport mode, it will hold onto a gear at least one higher than I would choose for a given bend. If brisk acceleration is required on exit it will change down only once the pedal is pressed firmly. It will drop more gears on entry but only if the braking is very firm. It gives a pleasing little blip too!

Post SLF test, and smoothness has taken a much higher position in my list of things to work on.

Now, with gear changing be a foot free exercise, I could leave the braking very late, change down with foot still on the brake, probably into the corner now, and then back on the gas. But although the gear change itself is smooth, I would actually want a little power at this stage. Making that transition while in the early stages of the corner means that the accelerator needs quite a quick press to get the throttle open sufficiently to get said. The result, for me, is a noticeable jolt.

Open the process out so that I’m back on the power before the corner and I’m finding it easier to smooth the transition. Now, perhaps this is just that my right foot needs to be more delicate - but it seems to make a little more sense to get rid of the jolt and then work on the timing - I get better “feedback” on my own technique.

Something else to add: Limit point. I get the basic principle, but I didn’t appreciate how often the limit point starts to open up just before you enter a bend (or even junction). So the idea that you need to add a little power to compensate for tyre scrub as you are cornering, can, if I’ve understood this correctly (big if, please shout me down if I’ve got this wrong), change to needing quite a bit of power as the speed you have slowed to initially based on visibility and safety actually becomes a lot lower than required.

So where would you like your right foot in this situation? Still on the brake because you had planned to loose a bit more speed but now realise you don’t need to? Moving to the accelerator or already on said pedal and moving it a little more?

Finally, adding power through the corner improves the way the car feels. I’m going to defer to better minds as to why but again, feeding that extra power in the early stages of the bend feels much smoother if started earlier.

Right, that was a ramble, it isn’t meant to be definitive, so I fully expect a lot of it to be pulled apart.

[jcochrane]

Great to hear that you have noticed that for most bends the limit point starts to move before steering input is required. What I try to do is match my speed to the limit point so the moment it starts to move some throttle is applied and increases with the rate of acceleration of the limit point thereon. Often in my car that means that my foot is on the floorboard part way through the bend. To apply the throttle as soon as the limit point moves away means completing braking first rather than trail braking into the first phase of the bend after steering input. However there are some occasions where I will trail brake but would not be the norm for me, except on circuit.
I find this technique gives very good balance, minimal steering input and a quick exit.

With regard to the paddle shift on an auto I usually click through fairly quickly during braking.

[titian]

Considering this, it may help:-

However I drive an automatic, albeit mostly in manual mode so I don’t have a clutch to worry about. But that means no way of block changing myself. So given that I could be happily trundling along at 60, on a long straight that means 6th, 7th or even coasting is a possibility. For a sharp bend or junction I could be looking for 2nd. Click, click, click, click, click, click and away.

When "trundling along at 60" why not engage auto,then as you approach the bend and brake down to the desired speed, early would help initially, the auto gears will "follow" your speed loss such that when you get down to the required speed for the bend you may only need one click down to achive the manual gear appropriate for the bend?

[titian]

Mine does Dave.

Travelling along NSL road in auto - probably in 8th gear, I can't actually see the gear before hitting a paddle or shifting the gear lever, I need to make a 90 degree left turn into a narrow rural road, speed down to almost walking pace, use downshift paddle and will get either 4th or 3rd gear (depending on the exact speed I'm at).

BGOL is often planned in as well as a result of closely following traffic

[titian]

Ah, I am not familiar with a PDK auto box, must do some research.

Thanks for clarifying things.

[Rick101]

Been thinking about this again and getting in some practice. I think i've nailed down my concern/confusion.

Losing sufficient speed without losing engine control/juddering stalling.

Travelling along NSL 60mph road at 60 in 6th gear
Indicate left for sharp 90 degree turn (suitable for 15mph)
Start braking
Speed drops to 35mph, revs at 800rpm, engine starting to judder
Release brakes and put foot over accelerator (as I have to demonstrate clear separation)
Disengage clutch
Change gear 6th to 2nd
Increase revs for smooth change
Engage clutch
Car has now slowed to 30mph
I'm not allowed to go adjust 'speed' as that's before 'gear'

I subsequently end up taking corner faster than most observers like or end up going back onto the brakes mid corner.

I suppose one option is to put an extra downward gear change in before the corner say 6th to 4th.

I'd also argue if the safest way is only doing one thing at a time then rev matching is probably more likely to go wrong than just holding onto the brake a fraction longer whilst the clutch is disengaged as this is what we do when coming to a stop anyway.

Thoughts?