Overtaking with speed

[martine]

Another overtaking query:

Yesterday rounded a corner and found I was approaching a much slower moving car with a clear road ahead and used my existing speed to complete the overtake safely (I believe). I didn't do the classic 'overtaking triangle' in as much as I didn't match the speed, take up a followng position, move offside without closing and then accelerate when clear.

Firstly is there a name for overtaking using your existing closing speed?

Secondly did I do right? If so, what are the particular things to note when doing this?

[ScoobyChris]

If you had a good view of the road ahead (as good a view as if you did the traditional Roadcraft overtake), I see no reason why not. When you pulled back in after the overtake were you happy with it?

Chris

[martine]

If you had a good view of the road ahead (as good a view as if you did the traditional Roadcraft overtake), I see no reason why not. When you pulled back in after the overtake were you happy with it?

Chris

Yes the view was excellent (slightly down hill), nice clear road, no junctions etc. Yes I was happy with it but one thing concerned me was taking the overtakee by surprise. A headlamp flash?

[Susie]

I've heard it called a "Flying Overtake" - on the majority of over-populated roads, it's rarely possible nowadays - that you find yourself travelling along at your chosen running speed and can continue at the same pace as you approach the slower moving vehicle, move out and execute the manoeuvre with no oncomers or hazards that require you to adopt a following position at reduced speed first.

The 'plan' still needs to be applied but the feeling of achievement is far more satisfying because there has been no interruption to the pace and flow.

There are some superb roads (trade secret) where this type of overtake is entirely possible but I'm not going to tell anyone where they are

Kind regards

Susie

[crr003]

I didn't do the classic 'overtaking triangle' in as much as I didn't match the speed, take up a followng position, move offside without closing and then accelerate when clear.

Firstly is there a name for overtaking using your existing closing speed?

Secondly did I do right? If so, what are the particular things to note when doing this?

Roadcraft page 128 - "Overtaking in the absence of other hazards".
Perfectly reasonable.
It's how you would overtake on a DC or motorway.
I think some might call it the banana overtake.

[James]

Yes this is one of 2 overtaking techniques mentioned within Roadcraft.

This sort of overtake is progressive in that you are not losing speed as you approach the hazard (slower moving vehicle) but it needs sound observation just prior to making the decision to proceed with the technique. I say that because if you do find yourself on a long open stretch travelling at the limit and you have a slow mover, in order to keep your speed you will need to quickly assess the suitability of an overtake. Key factors will include:

-The presence of junctions and visibility into or around them

-The presence of other road users and areas of low visibility where other road users ma suddenly appear (dips in road, bend, behind buidlings)

-The presence of layby's and the propensity of the vehicle to travel into one on the offside

-The road surface and physical properties of both lanes

amongst various other things.

Sounds like you manoevre was perfectly safe and justfied. Whenever I find myself in a situation like this I find myself completing it in stages. Firstly I am assessing the suitability of an overtake using the factors I mentioned above. Secondly, I am mirror and shoulder checking before moving out to the opposing carriageway, whilst still gaining on the slow mover, in order to 1)Get a fuller picture of what is ahead and 2) Be ready to commit to the overtake (I can still move in and abort if necessary but if keep everything constant I will overtake). Thirdly I commit to the O/T past the point of no return and monitor the other car for had movements, lane movements e.t.c. before overtaking and returning to my lane.

[James]

Hope he had 1) Planned for the loss of vision of the crest and was able to stop within the distance he/she could see to be clear and 2) Did not exceed the limit in order to overtake

[martine]

Thanks James and others for the advice and references to Roadcraft (must read it again)

I like the sound of a 'banana overtake' - quite bizarre.

One thing James - what did you mean by:

Thirdly I commit to the O/T past the point of no return

[James]

When approaching a slow mover and planning to OT in this way (in the absence of other hazards) there is always a point at which the OT can be aborted. This is normally the last point where you can safely move in and brake so as to cancel the manouvre. (point of no return)

So I don't commit ot the OT until I at this point, but I won't go past this point without first using my observations and changing position as mentioned in my 1st and 2nd stages.

Its a bit like the triangular overtake using the following, contact and OT position but instead you adopt the OT early and further assess the OT whilst approaching the overtakee in that position. Once you know it's on you can commit to it, and it could always be "off" right up until that point of no return (for example the overtakee changes speed/position, another road user comes into play e.t.c.)

[martine]

Thanks James - I just had visions of you not being sure (commited) until sometime after the point of no return - whereas I suppose it's better described as 'commiting to the overtake as you pass the point of no return'. Sorry to be pedantic

[The Tuscan Rat]

The correct name for this manoeuvre is called “ A Momentum Overtake “.

I love doing them, it gives you a real experience of full control with vision, a very rewarding manoeuvre. Most common way for a solo to overtake.

Just remember when doing them to look for any sign of an offside hazard, such as tractor coming out of a field etc. Good early lateral vision should pick this up though.

[TripleS]

Another overtaking query:

Yesterday rounded a corner and found I was approaching a much slower moving car with a clear road ahead and used my existing speed to complete the overtake safely (I believe). I didn't do the classic 'overtaking triangle' in as much as I didn't match the speed, take up a followng position, move offside without closing and then accelerate when clear.

Firstly is there a name for overtaking using your existing closing speed?

Secondly did I do right? If so, what are the particular things to note when doing this?

Some know it as the 'momentum overtaking' technique, a ploy well loved by those who drive clapped out 406 oil burners, but I'm relieved to say it has the approval of my friend from Hendon, so that's OK.

It has always seemed sensible to me to retain and make use of any speed advantage you may have over the target' - but do guard against the possibility of finding you are unable to go ahead with the overtake, and maybe finding yourself closing rapidly on somebody's tail and unable to get the speed down sufficiently!

BTW, do be careful how you explain this to the Stressed One. 'e don't like bananas.

Anyhow, a gentleman recently seemed to feel guilty about having done one of these momentum overtakes, so I tried to reassure him as follows:

"There's nothing wrong with a momentum overtake, if it is done properly, so I wouldn't worry about that, but some people do seem to get their knickers in a knot about it.

One gentleman on another forum (a gentleman, moreover, with greater expertise than most of the pundits we normally encounter) likens the momentum overtake to the procedure we use when we pull out to pass a parked vehicle, which seemed to me a fair point. So, if we're expected to use the classic overtaking technique all the time, what do we need to do when we wish to pass a parked vehicle on our side of the road?

Ah, I think I've got it. What we do is go offside (subject to it being safe to do so), then we match speed with the parked vehicle (i.e. we stop just behind it and to the right, and have a careful look past to see if it's safe to go ahead with our overtake, and if it is - yippee - we can accelerate from a standing start and go past, and continue on our merry way. If it isn't safe to do this difficult overtake, it's probably because the road is now blocked by an oncoming driver who might like to have continued unhindered, instead of having to stop nose to nose with us until we stop arsing about. I hope this will be found helpful."

Assuring you of our best attention at all times,
Dave.

[TripleS]

I've heard it called a "Flying Overtake" - on the majority of over-populated roads, it's rarely possible nowadays - that you find yourself travelling along at your chosen running speed and can continue at the same pace as you approach the slower moving vehicle, move out and execute the manoeuvre with no oncomers or hazards that require you to adopt a following position at reduced speed first.

The 'plan' still needs to be applied but the feeling of achievement is far more satisfying because there has been no interruption to the pace and flow.

There are some superb roads (trade secret) where this type of overtake is entirely possible but I'm not going to tell anyone where they are

Kind regards

Susie

That's OK, I know where some of them are, and I've been enjoying them for 45 years.

Incidentally, I think the technique is still usable to some extent even where you do not have almost deserted roads. In this case I would suggest the thing to do is avoid closing on the target and leaving yourself with only the classic overtake option. I find it works well if you hang well back until a likely opportunity looks like emerging, and then start closing up (within reason) and you can still treat it as a momentum overtake.

What can be particularly satisfying IMHO is where you have a long straight(ish) road and a few decently spaced 'targets' which you can do one at a time in between the oncomers - though I can't say this is a scenario that arises often.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Had a nice example of this the other day, executed on me by a Police driver. Was at the legal limit on a S/C......

Cheers, Chris.

A likely story. Mr Plod probably did well to get past.

Yes OK, I've got my trousers seat padding ordered ready for 28 July.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Horse]

I was approaching a much slower moving car with a clear road ahead and used my existing speed to complete the overtake safely (I believe). I didn't do the classic 'overtaking triangle' in as much as I didn't match the speed, take up a followng position, move offside without closing and then accelerate when clear.

Firstly is there a name for overtaking using your existing closing speed?

Secondly did I do right? If so, what are the particular things to note when doing this?

IIRC, R/c shows two different 'types' of overtake:
One where you follow, move out, GO!
The other where you continue on at your speed, move out earlier as you're closing (with time to abort if nec.), and pass.

Name for it? Dunno

Things to note? As mentioned elsewhere here, be aware that the driver may be unaware of you, especially if your closing speed is relatively high.