Span 180 degrees today

[Gareth]

all advanced driving instructors drive a BMW

Reminds me, and totally unrelated to this thread or almost anything here, that the local, (to where I'm working), driving school has, (and only has), a fleet of BMW 3 series cars to teach learners. So much more enlightened than anywhere in the UK, don't you think

[jbsportstech]

Chris Gilbert drives 730d
Nigel Albright Has 2Nr 325 tourings

[waremark]

all advanced driving instructors drive a BMW

Reminds me, and totally unrelated to this thread or almost anything here, that the local, (to where I'm working), driving school has, (and only has), a fleet of BMW 3 series cars to teach learners. So much more enlightened than anywhere in the UK, don't you think

And sort of confirms that there is no problem with the combination of RWD and winter conditions, so long as you also add winter tyres to the mix.

[waremark]

The majority of people I am chatting to on another site (no, its not PH) are all saying you need to power out of an oversteer motion on a FWD. If this is the case that is certainly something I have never been told.. not sure whether to be surprised or not to be honest.

It is certainly the case that power at the front wheels pulls you out of an oversteer slide. I wonder why Roadcraft chooses not to mention this??

James, if you don't mind sharing this info, how much limit handling practise did you get on your driving course, and did it include experience of the different drive types?

I was introduced to FWD oversteer the first time I went on a Volvo winter driving course in Sweden. We were introduced to it at very low speed, with the handbrake partly applied; lift off the gas and you immediately got oversteer, back on the gas and it pulled straight. It worked just the same way at much higher speeds on a slippery surface.

[vonhosen]

Chris Gilbert drives 730d
Nigel Albright Has 2Nr 325 tourings

Ah well that's all advanced driving instructors then

[stefan einz]

The majority of people I am chatting to on another site (no, its not PH) are all saying you need to power out of an oversteer motion on a FWD. If this is the case that is certainly something I have never been told.. not sure whether to be surprised or not to be honest.

It is certainly the case that power at the front wheels pulls you out of an oversteer slide. I wonder why Roadcraft chooses not to mention this??

James, if you don't mind sharing this info, how much limit handling practise did you get on your driving course, and did it include experience of the different drive types?

I was introduced to FWD oversteer the first time I went on a Volvo winter driving course in Sweden. We were introduced to it at very low speed, with the handbrake partly applied; lift off the gas and you immediately got oversteer, back on the gas and it pulled straight. It worked just the same way at much higher speeds on a slippery surface.

Just to affirm that you are correct Mark - here is Chris Harris demonstrating said effect.

http://www.drivers-republic.com/dr_tv/i ... a=features

Kind regards

Steve

[waremark]

here is Chris Harris demonstrating said effect.

http://www.drivers-republic.com/dr_tv/i ... a=features

Excellent link for this thread, Steve.

[James]

Oooh lots of replies to get through. Some interesting, some nonsense.

I did skin pan training on my course in both RWD and FWD... FWD lift off oversteer is not relevant to us though, so it may be that the technique of leaving some power on works. It certainly makes sense in my mind.

As for the car, I don't frequent the VXR forum as the quality of members are really rather crude. You tend to get alot of the sorts of posts like we have seen earlier in this thread on forums like that. I prefer to do my talking on the road rather than be a keyboard warrior. Like all powerful FWD cars sometimes putting the power down can be an issue, but thats the whole point, it's fun / interesting / keeps you on you toes. Anything that doesn't do that is boring. They all do the same job these hot hatches, none of them are anything special.

I chose the VXR as I wanted outstanding straight line performance. That way your progress is determined by your drivng skills in the twisties. I would rather have a quick car that I have to work harder to navigate complex twisties, than to have a slow car that requires minimal effort to get round corners.

*JBsportstech, I stopped making deductions from TV reviews years ago, if you scan youtube you will find many other back to back TV reviews amongst all manner of cars all with differing results. Its a review, not the gospel

[waremark]

I did skin pan training on my course in both RWD and FWD... FWD lift off oversteer is not relevant to us though, so it may be that the technique of leaving some power on works. It certainly makes sense in my mind.

It may require more gas than just 'leaving some power on'.

James, one odd comment there: why 'FWD lift off oversteer is not relevant to us'? Surely your recent experience (which could perfectly well have happened on the job) illustrates how relevant it is?

Another lift off oversteer clip here (at about 1m 10s):

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=63_Zc4BGaZU

With this one, it is a miracle that the driver got away with it.

[vonhosen]

Oooh lots of replies to get through. Some interesting, some nonsense.

I did skin pan training on my course in both RWD and FWD...

In a FWD car with overinflated slick front tyres & in a RWD car with overinflated slick rear tyres.

If the cause is weight transfer, then weight transfer is part of the answer.

[James]

I did skin pan training on my course in both RWD and FWD... FWD lift off oversteer is not relevant to us though, so it may be that the technique of leaving some power on works. It certainly makes sense in my mind.

It may require more gas than just 'leaving some power on'.

James, one odd comment there: why 'FWD lift off oversteer is not relevant to us'? Surely your recent experience (which could perfectly well have happened on the job) illustrates how relevant it is?

Another lift off oversteer clip here (at about 1m 10s):

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=63_Zc4BGaZU

With this one, it is a miracle that the driver got away with it.

Wouldnt be expected to get anywhere the limits of adhesion on the road, especially "lift off oversteer" which is generally caused by sudden or abrupt inputs... Of course it is relevant in general terms, but not catered for in the sorts of driving I do.

[7db]

With this one, it is a miracle that the driver got away with it.

Indeed - Jesus wept.

[waremark]

Wouldnt be expected to get anywhere the limits of adhesion on the road, especially "lift off oversteer" which is generally caused by sudden or abrupt inputs... Of course it is relevant in general terms, but not catered for in the sorts of driving I do.

James, I am suggesting that the lift off does not have to be sudden or abrupt (surely it wasn't in the Citroen clip), and that this may be just what you experienced recently, although you felt you were well within the limits of grip.

[James]

The video shows quite a violent / quick turn on a slight bend, not sure it was quite the same. I was already turning at about 45 degrees at least at a very slow speed, and although a full circle my turn was gentle and consistent, as if on ice.

Funny video though, very well held.

[Red Herring]

I have to say that is one of my all time favorite bends on the ring but I just wasn't expecting that in the clip. The driver appeared to be quite smooth so I was as surprised as he was when it broke away, having said that they do comment a bit later in the clip that it was wet and the Ring's surface is notoriously unpredictable in such conditions. Brilliant save though.....