ADUK Archive

Astraist wrote:Interesting. I've learned to overtake much like what Ivor described: Hanging back, seeing the upportunity, accelerating forward in my own lane, passing to the next lane and completing the overtake. By hanging back we maintain the safe following gap from the traffic in front, keep our field of vision clear, allow the car in front/behind/oncoming to notice we are about to overtake and can use the space in our own lane to get up to speed without being in the dangerous opposite lane.

Is the opposite lane necessarily dangerous? If it's not safe to move offside to have a look before committing, I'd have thought it's not safe to overtake.

Astraist wrote:It is true that during that brief moment where we close up against the car in front, we open ourselves to risk, but since we have to ensure that the chance for an overtake is indeed safe, we need to make sure that nothing will cause the overtaken driver to act in such a dangerous way. Even if he does stop suddenly, we can still brake and than steer. Since both cars are still moving, and since we ready ourselves to overtake only when the off-side is clear, we should be able to use it as a clear escape route and than return to our lane.

The idea of moving offside before you commit is to help you see everything you need to see in order to make the decision whether to overtake or not. It's not only the offside that needs to be clear. From your own lane you can probably see whether there is any oncoming traffic, or any junctions or other hazards offside. But what about nearside? Moving offside may give you a better view of a nearside junction, or it may reveal the cyclist ahead that you hadn't seen (and which may be the very reason the car in front of you does brake or change direction suddenly). If there's a line of traffic ahead with some gaps, can you see your landing spot? Can you see which drivers are maintaining a consistent gap that you could return to?

If you hang back enough, and stick left (right, in the UK) INSIDE your lane, you should be able to gain good visibility. If you don't, than maybe the conditions are too bad to allow any kind of overtake? Of course these are the two extremes, there are cases where moving offside early helps, but it depends.

some info here to supplement the youtube stuff

http://www.ridedrive.co.uk/driving-tips-07a.htm

whatever happend to him on ph ??

waremark wrote:Who said anything about your fault? But if you can help someone else avoid a bad accident isn't that worth doing?

All well and good but how do you make room to help someone if that room is not available?

The section of road in question is long enough for one vehicle to get past safely, maybe two if they are a couple of feet apart but no way for trucks even without me in the way, I could not believe he was going to follow and in fact for a brief moment I considered backing off myself and dropping back again behind the tractor, sadly he was such a prat I am fairly certain he would simply have pushed me into the rear of the tractor.

As for being self-righteous, safe driving has no room for such things

IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:I personally have no problem with breaking the speed limit (slightly ) if I think it will be safer that way....

IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:(ie i was not going to speed up for his benefit) and he was left with no choice but to stand on the brakes and barely made it back behind the tractor before the oncoming vehicles wiped him out.

Wonder if he learnt anything

Ivor I understand what you're saying about people taking responsiblity for their own driving, but I think we all carry responsibility on the roads. Haven't you ever watched the driver behind following your positioning without really realising what they are doing?
It does rather read as though you are happy to speed if you feel it is warranted, but implies you think others should not. I know if (a) I'd mucked up and followed someone where I shouldn't I'd appreciate their help or (b) if I felt I'd led someone into an overtake that might get a bit tight for space I'd try my hardest to get out of their way...

IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:....i was not going to speed up for his benefit) and he was left with no choice but to stand on the brakes and barely made it back

The implied attitude behind all this is, "I'm right and he's wrong. If he gets into trouble serve him right; it ain't my problem."

Lots of drivers think like this, and in many cases they are not always as 'right' as they would like to think. Even when they are technically correct it is an unhelpful attitude, and it is not only the supposed villain who stands to lose by it.

I'm not suggesting this is representative of you as a driver: I'm just responding to your specific comment.

I've always felt that the IAM and RoADAR could do much to help with overtaking. My suggestion was to go out in pairs - two associates in their own cars, each with an observer with a two-way radio so the two cars can communicate and co-operate. Then, by using appropriate local roads, they can practice over-taking (and being overtaken).

I appreciate that this is rather artificial, but it's better than nothing.

It has been done, but it's tricky to arrange and requires complete trust between the observers. There's a section on the later Chris Gilbert DVD on overtaking where they do something just like this.

Not very often I can get an associate to do a SC overtake for the reasons given on here but there have been many opportunities to practice most of it by being the last in a queue and then getting fully into the oncoming lane at the same speed as the queue followed by pulling back in and backing off - most done apart from the actual act of passing anything!!

Mr Cholmondeley-Warner wrote:It has been done, but it's tricky to arrange and requires complete trust between the observers. There's a section on the later Chris Gilbert DVD on overtaking where they do something just like this.

Nick, I am not clear why it should need trust between the observers. If you are going to be able to overtake a stranger, surely you should be able to practise on a friend pretending to behave like a stranger? In my mind, the reason for two vehicles to work together is to ensure that you can find a slow travelling vehicle on an otherwise not too busy road. Where does the trust have to come in?

In my head

Obviously we would use observers and fellow associates to give us an advantage over the unpredictable stranger. I just meant that we'd a) have to trust that the fellow observer would be in control of his associate's actions and b) that the associate would behave in a predictable and safe manner at the wheel. We're not talking AM and PD here There's enough danger in overtaking manoeuvres at best without setting out purposely to create more.

All that said I think it's a great idea and I'd love to try it. I just feel it would need some degree of agreed procedure to avoid nasty surprises.

Angus wrote:I've always felt that the IAM and RoADAR could do much to help with overtaking. My suggestion was to go out in pairs - two associates in their own cars, each with an observer with a two-way radio so the two cars can communicate and co-operate. Then, by using appropriate local roads, they can practice over-taking (and being overtaken).

Actually this is a good idea. I have been part of training that took place in pairs of vehicles, which was a good chance for practicing proper overtaking, as well as other things that a pair of drivers can do to reduce hazards (like "protected lane changes").

Astraist wrote:If you hang back enough, and stick left (right, in the UK) INSIDE your lane, you should be able to gain good visibility. If you don't, than maybe the conditions are too bad to allow any kind of overtake? Of course these are the two extremes, there are cases where moving offside early helps, but it depends.

I think you've edited this since I first read it. Originally, I don't think you had "(right, in the UK)" in there and I thought you had already converted left and right in your mind to convert from Israeli to UK driving. I thought you were suggesting that by hanging back and moving left in the UK, you could see more by looking past the nearside of the vehicle ahead. Which I thought was a valid point.

[I'll stick to the UK version of left and right]

If you're talking about moving right to see the past the vehicle ahead, then in general the further right you move the better view you will have past them. It would seem a little arbitrary to restrict yourself to only moving right within your own lane simply because of the white paint of the centre line. I'd move as far right as necessary to get the view I needed.

Indeed I edited the message. My point is that moving all the way over to the near lane is unnecessary (in most cases, not in all of them...). The less time and space in the opposite lane, the better.

zadocbrown wrote:

IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:....i was not going to speed up for his benefit) and he was left with no choice but to stand on the brakes and barely made it back

The implied attitude behind all this is, "I'm right and he's wrong. If he gets into trouble serve him right; it ain't my problem."

Lots of drivers think like this, and in many cases they are not always as 'right' as they would like to think. Even when they are technically correct it is an unhelpful attitude, and it is not only the supposed villain who stands to lose by it.

I'm not suggesting this is representative of you as a driver: I'm just responding to your specific comment.

Thanks for your last setence zadoc, I do have a problem with putting my thoughts on paper (or forum) and do leave myself open for slagging but the problem with this prat (apologies for continuing off topic) was that if I had not decided it was safe for me to overtake, the chances are he would have attempted an overtake of me and the tractor, my decision to go was based on my safety,I did not expect him to follow me and using 5th gear to overtake was fine in the space available but, and I said this before, there was no room for him as well as he found out.
The lack of space for him had nothing to do with me being the way but was due to the length of road available before the next corner.

Overtaking is an art that needs to be practised as so many things can go wrong no matter how carefully you plan.

Thats me... brain hurts now