Don Palmer - Car Control day

[Gareth]

it just doesn't seem right to 'abuse' my beloved ST

If my very old GTV6 could take it I don't see there should be any problems with your much much newer ST.

I think the course I did was late summer in 2002. My GTV6 at that time would have been ALM 330Y, so about 20 years old.

[kfae8959]

Interesting that a couple of posters say they did a session with Don when it was wet or frosty...is this translatable to dry limit handling and if so, why not save wear and tear and always do it on a low-grip surface?

Yes, it is: what you feel when the grip changes is the same, regardless of the amount of grip, and that's something Don often demonstrates using some of the grassy bits. If huge expanses of low grip surface 120' wide with loads of run off area existed, I'm sure they'd get used, but as it is, a wet runway is the closest you get!

I'm not sure I've ever said it has nothing of value. I can see being able to explore and practice car handling at the limits (and beyond) of grip might be useful in extremis

I found it made a noticeable difference to my steering overall, and that has probably been more valuable than what I learnt about control through and beyond the limit of grip.

David

[martine]

...If huge expanses of low grip surface 120' wide with loads of run off area existed, I'm sure they'd get used, but as it is, a wet runway is the closest you get!

It's surprising there aren't any then...Dragons Den here I come...

[JamesAllport]

Martin,

I've done two days now, and am saving for another. As others have said, tyre wear wasn't as extreme as I'd been expecting. The outboard edges of my tyres wore somewhat, because the car was rolling more then I would ever (hope!) to be in road driving. I wouldn't want to treat my car like that all day every day but as an isolated learning experience the wear and tear that undoubtedly occurred "under the skin" was superb value for money.

If you're seriously concerned about this give Don a call and chat it through with him. He's been doing this for 20 years now and I suspect that if he were regularly destroying cars, people would stop pitching up with their Carrera GT...

Value wise: You and I have discussed this lots online. I'd have to say that Don's work on my steering has made more difference to my road driving (even at slow speeds) than any other single day of coaching. The bit that gets overlooked in all of this tyre-shredding talk is Don's focus on managing your internal state and emotions. That's where the real value has come from for me.

Please do write it up for us. It'd be great to hear what you think.

James

[martine]

Good to hear everyone's views - thanks.

Please do write it up for us. It'd be great to hear what you think.

Just to be clear it's 'faboka' that's doing the Don day.

[jameslb101]

...If huge expanses of low grip surface 120' wide with loads of run off area existed, I'm sure they'd get used, but as it is, a wet runway is the closest you get!

It's surprising there aren't any then...Dragons Den here I come...

Get to the patent office...you could call it a field

On a serious note I'd love to do limit handling course sometime, especially given I've now got my first RWD car, and one with quite a reputation for being tricky on the limit.

Martin, you'll have an email very shortly.

[ScoobyChris]

Interesting that a couple of posters say they did a session with Don when it was wet or frosty...is this translatable to dry limit handling and if so, why not save wear and tear and always do it on a low-grip surface?

On the day I did, there were dry bits and damp bits on the layout we were using so perhaps the best of both worlds. The damp bits weren't slippery enough that they couldn't be tackled at speeds above NSL so for me it was more useful and realistic than a low-grip surface, and as James A said, I was surprised at how much my road driving improved as a result of it.

You could be right but I'm not sure I've ever said it has nothing of value. I can see being able to explore and practice car handling at the limits (and beyond) of grip might be useful in extremis but personally I'd prefer to leave that to the ESP (only joking).

It's interesting that you raise the point about ESP. On another forum there is a discussion about ESP behaving unexpectedly on the limit and catching an experienced track and road driver out. Where better to explore that behaviour, before you get into a situation where you need its help

Chris

[faboka]

Good to hear everyone's views - thanks.

Please do write it up for us. It'd be great to hear what you think.

Just to be clear it's 'faboka' that's doing the Don day.

I am and I will do a write up. Might even add some tyre images to show people the wear on my day.

I'm personally hoping for a dry day, as much as I like wet I think I want to experience higher speed control.

[JamesAllport]

Whoops, sorry Martin.

Memo to self, don't try to multitask...

J.

[Horse]

I'd have to say that Don's work on my steering has made more difference to my road driving (even at slow speeds) than any other single day of coaching. The bit that gets overlooked in all of this tyre-shredding talk is Don's focus on managing your internal state and emotions. That's where the real value has come from for me.

Could you add a bit more explanation about both of those aspects? [steering, mental state] ta.

[JamesAllport]

Horse,

I'll try - it might be as clear as mud:

Steering: I'd been steering smoothly for a long time. Don described me as a "super smooth steerer of cars". But I was also someone who'd never been prompted to consider the feedback that the car was giving me through the steering wheel. My grip on the wheel was quite light, but I wasn't doing anything with the changes of weight that I felt through the steering wheel, not using them to evaluate the level of grip under the car and add that to my driving plan. Moreover, I was using too much steering; far more than I needed to get the angle of turn I wanted.

This is something StressedDave and other kind HPC friends had sought to beat out of me/coach me about (delete as applicable) on the road. But on track, where you can do the exercise of playing with just how little, or how much, steering angle will give you the same result, the lesson really hit home.

Finally, I was hanging onto lock far longer than the car needed to on the way out of turns, because I wasn't attentive enough to the feedback through the wheel. Again, the result was too much steering angle (and therefore less ability to do anything else) and at the limit, rather untidy recovery as I struggled to get rid of lock too late in the day.

When I took all of this back to the road, what I notice is that I steer more like the very best drivers I've sat beside (StressedDave and Stefan Einz are two on this forum from that group), who make very minimal, very considered, very smooth inputs and are very attentive to what the car is telling them, allowing them to plan better and also to adapt to new cars (a skill highly prized in HPC) very quickly. And I guess that's what Don would say his training is about from an NLP point of view, helping people to get closer to their model of excellence.

Mental State: I'm someone who gets really nervous when my driving's under scrutiny. That means that the drive I give on an ADUK day or HPC event will rarely be my best drive because all I'll be thinking about is what the co-driver thinks, and that makes it hard to focus on driving. Don did some exercises with me to give me some tools to focus better, to stay focussed when I make a mistake, and the permission to choose what information I focussed on. The last one of these - though it sounds new agey - is very powerful. Instead of thinking "Oh poo, I've just lost control of someone's 911 GT3 at Bruntingthorpe with Don Palmer sat next to me" - none of which is helpful - I practiced thinking only about what I wanted the car to do. The fact that I'd just spun is just that, a fact, neither good or bad of itself.

Hope at least some of that makes sense...

James

[Horse]

That's great - thanks

The mental pressure is a massive 'thing' to overcome. I find that it's best to concentrate on something positive, an - a process, action or 'outcome' - which shunts the monkey off your back.

Oddly enough, something as daft as singing can help, left brain (logical) says "You got that bend wrong last time, you'll do it again!" so you tense up etc. - but give it something to do (whether useful or positive or even a distraction) and it lets right brain get on with driving

[martine]

Love the discussion about mental state and how to overcome nerves...I can see this could be very powerful.

I am also one who doesn't think much about the feedback the car is giving me and well aware I need to become more 'at one'. In flying they often call it 'seat of the pants'.

I'm warming to the idea of limit handling...just with I could guarantee a wet day...but at the moment I think I'd prefer to spend more time with a coach on the road (and I don't mean one of National Expresses finest).

Cracking discussion though, grommit.

[faboka]

Indeed. Been a good read.

Well all booked for the 20th of this month

[waremark]

Brilliant writing by James, as often.

Do I think this new-agey stuff works for me? No, I don't think so, and I am lucky enough (from some points of view) to have a very calm temperament). I thought focusing on the job rather than anything else was one of the advantages of commentary. I remember a talk by James Pritchard on managing stress at the wheel - one of the things he suggested was acknowledging both stress or errors to yourself, and consciously giving yourself permission to move on.