Day out with Chris Gilbert

[jcochrane]

Nicola...PM sent.

[WhoseGeneration]

I am quite happy to change the way I drive for a better way - I just want to know what the better way is

That would depend upon how considerate of others you are.
Let us consider your roundabout approach, I'm on the roundabout and I see you approaching from my left, now I would take into account your speed to determine whether I should prepare to yield to you because your approach speed looks to me that you are one who will enter the roundabout with little concern for those on the roundabout.
How am I to know that you're a member of the late braking club?

[Gareth]

I just want to know what the better way is

You're also coming up against the usual problem that written communication is an imperfect medium.

To expand ... would anyone expect to be able to learn to play a violin from discussions on an internet forum? Much better to get together with others and have a jam session ... see/hear what others do, decide what you like, try things out, keep what works, park the rest, maybe to revisit at a later date or discard.

[Ancient]

I am quite happy to change the way I drive for a better way - I just want to know what the better way is

Perhaps (I don't know the chap) Chris was, having observed wat you do, not teaching you "a better way" but trying to give you a different way which you had not previously considered or practiced? More 'tools in the box' ?

[zadocbrown]

I am quite happy to change the way I drive for a better way - I just want to know what the better way is

Perhaps (I don't know the chap) Chris was, having observed wat you do, not teaching you "a better way" but trying to give you a different way which you had not previously considered or practiced? More 'tools in the box' ?

I wouldn't be surprised. I think good instructors will not be trying to make everyone drive the same way, but suggesting changes that they think will help a particular client.

[waremark]

All roundabouts are different, as well as drivers, and even the same driver on different days and at different roundabouts!

Nicola, I think you made it clear that you were arriving at a roundabout in a way which did not make the most of opportunities to blend with other traffic and keep moving into the roundabout. If Chris saw that, it would have been natural to suggest looking for a different way.

Dave's video showed arrival at fairly well sighted roundabouts (I think). Arriving at a well sighted roundabout, you can plan how to blend with other traffic well in advance, and depending on the traffic situation it may be possible to continue into the roundabout fairly quickly. On a less well sighted roundabout, your chances of entering the roundabout without stopping may be improved by a slower arrival.

Does that make sense?

[Nicola]

Hi Everyone,
Thank-you for all your thoughts tips and advice. Thanks especially to jc who stopped me from jumping off Beachy Head I was so confused at one point but beginning to get the idea of all this now. I had no idea that some of you are high performance experts and I have a million questions for any of you who wear that badge. I'm coming to Oxford to see what you all do and try and take some learns home with me. This really is a whole new world.

Whosegeneration - I promise I don't scream up to roundabouts like that, although if I can see someone coming up on my right really slowly - I will take the space, but it won't have affected them at all as they still won't have got to the give way line even after I'm out of the way. I really am not a selfish driver - just not smooth perhaps. Waremark - yes - that makes perfect sense. Gareth also - the violin analogy is very apt.
Going to hunt for the Oxford thing now

[fengpo]

Hi Nicola,

During the day with Chris does he like you to give a commentary? Also when you get to the meeting place for the training; hotel car park if memory from when I booked mine is correct. Does Chris call you or something or shall I walk up to him when he arrives?

Sorry for the questions I like to forward plan in detail; bit of OCD haha.

Thanks,

Conor

[ChrisGD4]

Having read all the comments about roundabout approaches under the above heading, I would like to add a few comments, which may help to cement together the principles involved. The method I teach comes from many years of teaching high-speed pursuit driving at Hendon and passed on to me by John Miles and others. Principle, ‘plan to stop but look to go’, a phrase now picked up by many of the advanced driving groups, but rarely do I see it applied correctly. Objective, have the ability to stop at the ‘give way’ line smoothly without a jolt and throwing the passengers about. Braking hard to stop behind the line is something we have all witnessed and is caused by the driver ‘planning to go and hoping not to stop’. We also want to keep the vehicle moving and avoid stopping at the ‘give way’ line where possible. At the approach, the driver shuts off the accelerator when we have sufficient momentum to get us to the give way line, and then, allow the vehicle to decelerate, then, without urgency the foot brake is gently applied, becoming progressively more firm. There is no guesswork with how much brake to apply; the driver should feel comfortable he/she has the ability to stop without drama at the give way line, treat the give way line as a RED traffic light! Armed with knowledge the vehicle will stop if required the driver starts looking into the roundabout for traffic movement and assesses the view to the right, remembering ‘vision before decision’. The later the vision, the later the decision, and the more the vehicle will slow down. If vision is good and no traffic, the decision to go and take a gear, can be made quite early, when speed is higher – but the driver will have to assess curvature of the entry into the roundabout before releasing the brake – the choice of gear may be second or third dependent of the safe entry speed chosen. If, on the approach, the driver spots another vehicle entering from the right or in circuit, extra brake should be applied so we can make an appointment with a space and have a clear entry path into the roundabout without having to stop. If vision to the right is poor, the decision to go may not be taken until almost at the line, when speed is down to ‘snails pace’. If at the final stages of approach, a gap to enter does not present itself – the vehicle will stop without extra braking, because we planned it that way from the outset. Once perfected the driver has time (no rush or panic) to make the final decision – do I go or do I stop? Both are easily achieved (without last minute braking).

It all sounds quite simple but it takes a lot of practice to get it right EVERYTIME, each approach will be different with regards to approach speed, traffic movement and view into the roundabout. The skills involved are excellent use of the controls, excellent judgement of speed and distance(timing) and excellent observation skills. It is a method that works at all approach speeds - high speed, I have approached at 140MPH in pursuit and at lower speed driving a 58 foot long artic with a police JCB on the low loader. Remember, the approach speed is of the driver’s choosing - be it 30MPH or 70 MPH. Whatever speed, this method works very well and has the benefit of not frightening the life out of the passengers or, having a jolting, firm stop. I am not saying this is the only method of approach – but it is the only one I teach based on Roadcraft principles.

I do not subscribe to using acceleration sense to the detriment of making safe and appropriate progress. Equally, I am not impressed with ‘comfort braking’ and the constant unnecessary touching of the brake pedal. A balance has to be drawn – a skill in itself!

[jcochrane]

Thanks Chris for an excellent detailed description of the classic approach to roundabouts. There is another approach often taught at police driving schools which works well with the high density of traffic experienced on today's roads and is only a slight variance to the one described by Chris. It entails a very early look into the roundabout and where density is high and no immediate gap in view to slow down more further back than the classic approach, to hang back off the roundabout, creating more time for a gap to appear to flow into. The aim is to keep hanging back to avoid having to come to a complete stop. Easier to achieve with with twos and blues but can still be very effective for civilian driving.
As Chris says, with any of these techniques, many hours of practice are required to get it right.

[ChrisGD4]

Yes, totally agree, something we also did. Early vision is crucial! It is essential for the advanced driver to use their skills and judgement and be ready to change plan systematically where necessary. Flexibility is the key word

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Since Chris came and presented to us some 3 years ago, the one phrase I've always carried with me, and impressed on associates, is the "planning to stop, looking to go" one. The key to it is to be honest with yourself, and know you can stop, every time, as Chris says. Once you crack that, and stop trying to "attack" roundabouts, everything starts to flow naturally...

[jcochrane]

Since Chris came and presented to us some 3 years ago, the one phrase I've always carried with me, and impressed on associates, is the "planning to stop, looking to go" one. The key to it is to be honest with yourself, and know you can stop, every time, as Chris says. Once you crack that, and stop trying to "attack" roundabouts, everything starts to flow naturally...

The phrase has been a mantra going around the IAM groups for decades. I don't know it's origins but I can remember it has been used since the 1960's

[Gromit37]

Dave, would you elucidate on this please? Attacking roundabouts that is, I'm not sure I understand (I guess it's nothing to do with Basil Fawlty type motoring exploits involving garden topiary).

[TripleS]

Dave, would you elucidate on this please? Attacking roundabouts that is, I'm not sure I understand (I guess it's nothing to do with Basil Fawlty type motoring exploits involving garden topiary).

I expect he's advocating being fairly positive and looking to make efficient progress, but without getting trapped into a 'need to stop, but can't', situation.