The brake gear overlap

[martine]

Sounds like your thinking is pretty good to me. I have to say in my car (Focus ST) in the situation you describe, I wouldn't have to take an intermediate gear...by the time the engine is around 1000rpm I'm doing less than 30, I can either put the clutch down for the very last bit (so still braking), come off the brakes and then do a separated gear change or, my preference is to do a 'partial overlap' and actually start the gear change process while still braking. I try and make sure I'm at the correct speed and off the brakes before I bring the clutch up though.

Every car is different and your corner example is pretty rare...for 90% of the time hopefully you're convinced one gear change with separation (or partial separation) is the way to go?

[Gareth]

Travelling along NSL 60mph road at 60 in 6th gear

You have selected a 'cruising' gear, perhaps for reasons of noise or economy, which continues to be appropriate while the reasons for choosing it do not change.

6th is not likely to be a responsive gear, so at this point you have temporarily deviated from Roadcraft advice.

Indicate left for sharp 90 degree turn (suitable for 15mph)

Your plan to take a side turning changes the status quo - change to a responsive gear based on your driving plan.

Depending on your car, you might find that 3rd is appropriate if you are planning to stop or slow to a very low speed, whereas 4th might be appropriate if the speed at the end of braking will be a bit higher.

For example, if you expect to need 1st to take the turning, you might choose 3rd gear at this stage. If 2nd will be more appropriate then you might choose 4th.

Start braking [...]

Avoiding BGOL should now be a lot easier.

[Rick101]

It seems most are saying then the strict adherence to BGOL is a bad idea. It needs some flexibility.

TBH the only reason i'm still dwelling on it is that I have my first ROSPA test coming up soon. All examiners have different standards and the only way to guarantee success is to do it exactly be the book. Problem is, I don't think the book conveys it's intention correctly.

I think the best option for my test is to select a lower gear 100 yds out and hope the examiner sees the sense in it rather than telling me I've chosen the wrong gear and should have waited longer as I've now had to do two changes rather than one and now my gearbox will have prematurely worn

I'm looking forward to the driving day on the 18th so I can get some proper seat time with people from all different backgrounds.

[martine]

'The book' allows flexibility and lists situations where BGOL is beneficial - you're examiner will be aware of these.

If you do a commentary, you can explain your thinking and I'm sure you'll be fine.

Don't obsess about pure separation - there's much more to being a great driver.

[Rick101]

I'll have a good read though this weekend. I'm only going off verbal advise from observers that you must 100% separate and not touch clutch until your other foot is clear of the brake and over the accelerator.
I know Roadcraft advocates separation but need to clarify exactly what the instruction is.

[Kimosabe]

I'll have a good read though this weekend. I'm only going off verbal advise from observers that you must 100% separate and not touch clutch until your other foot is clear of the brake and over the accelerator.
I know Roadcraft advocates separation but need to clarify exactly what the instruction is.

Regarding Bgol, how about Agol? Surely braking into a potentially hazardous situation is better than accelerating into it?

I still have this 'thing' about how long it would take to take my foot off the Accelerator and hard enough on the brake pedal to activate ABS to a standstill, should something unexpected appear infront of me, while i'm maintaining a constant speed around a 90 degree corner (at about 10mph or less) a la BGOL. My thinking is that it is safer to be able to more quickly control the vehicle to a complete stop by covering the brake pedal rather than having my foot pressing down the accelerator pedal. As for how 'unstable' and 'out of control' my car is at those slow speeds, I'd rather be braking into a potentially hazardous situation (parked cars at or near the entrance of a junction which may conceal those children who play ball in the road/ a cat/ a car pulling out) than accelerating.

[zadocbrown]

I'll have a good read though this weekend. I'm only going off verbal advise from observers that you must 100% separate and not touch clutch until your other foot is clear of the brake and over the accelerator.
I know Roadcraft advocates separation but need to clarify exactly what the instruction is.

Regarding Bgol, how about Agol? Surely braking into a potentially hazardous situation is better than accelerating into it?

I still have this 'thing' about how long it would take to take my foot off the Accelerator and hard enough on the brake pedal to activate ABS to a standstill, should something unexpected appear infront of me, while i'm maintaining a constant speed around a 90 degree corner (at about 10mph or less) a la BGOL. My thinking is that it is safer to be able to more quickly control the vehicle to a complete stop by covering the brake pedal rather than having my foot pressing down the accelerator pedal. As for how 'unstable' and 'out of control' my car is at those slow speeds, I'd rather be braking into a potentially hazardous situation (parked cars at or near the entrance of a junction which may conceal those children who play ball in the road/ a cat/ a car pulling out) than accelerating.

The standard response would be that if you feel this way you are carrying too much speed. Slow down more and you will have plenty of time to react. There may be exceptions of course.

[jcochrane]

I'll have a good read though this weekend. I'm only going off verbal advise from observers that you must 100% separate and not touch clutch until your other foot is clear of the brake and over the accelerator.
I know Roadcraft advocates separation but need to clarify exactly what the instruction is.

Regarding Bgol, how about Agol? Surely braking into a potentially hazardous situation is better than accelerating into it?

I still have this 'thing' about how long it would take to take my foot off the Accelerator and hard enough on the brake pedal to activate ABS to a standstill, should something unexpected appear infront of me, while i'm maintaining a constant speed around a 90 degree corner (at about 10mph or less) a la BGOL. My thinking is that it is safer to be able to more quickly control the vehicle to a complete stop by covering the brake pedal rather than having my foot pressing down the accelerator pedal. As for how 'unstable' and 'out of control' my car is at those slow speeds, I'd rather be braking into a potentially hazardous situation (parked cars at or near the entrance of a junction which may conceal those children who play ball in the road/ a cat/ a car pulling out) than accelerating.

The standard response would be that if you feel this way you are carrying too much speed. Slow down more and you will have plenty of time to react. There may be exceptions of course.

Whilst agreeing with you completely about speed at turn in being too high (which in my experience/opinion is very common) my preferred choice would be having a foot on or over the brake, where possible, until satisfied that the accelerator is required/can be used. Particularly for rural roads.

[TheInsanity1234]

In my opinion, as an outside observer who can not yet drive legally, I would rather people braked as much as they needed in terms of limit point or whatever, but as they round the corner, instead of immediately accelerating as the limit point opens up, I would prefer that they came off the brakes, left a gap of a couple of seconds just to confirm that it is safe to accelerate, then accelerate.

[Kimosabe]

.

[WhoseGeneration]

Yes, sorry it's separation that is the issue.

I have been told no overlap is allowed whatsoever.

1 Brake for corner.
2 Come off brakes.
3 Right foot over gas (car usually near stall by this point)
4 Disengage clutch
5 Change gear (usually 3/4 to 2nd)
6 Engage clutch
7 Then begin turn


Nobody from IAM has mentioned rev match, The only time I've heard that is from people on here

I understand why you wouldn't usually trail brake into a corner but I don't see why you can't prepare your gear change, i.e 4 & 5 whilst under braking. As long as the clutch is disengaged and you remain in control of the car (braking not coasting) it doesn't really matter what you do with the gearbox surely.

From the length of this thread you've probably come to understand that this sort of question is hard to explain verbally and that demonstration is a better way.
So, ask your Observer to demonstrate, insurance permitting, in your car. Always a good idea to challenge a tutor to prove their proficiency
Getting along to an ADUK day and availing yourself of the help of the many very capable drivers who will be there will also be useful.
Thing is, much of this car control and driving technique stuff is down to feel and coming to terms with the specifics of any particular vehicle.
Once you've understood your vehicle you will be able to drive it using many techniques, yes, including avoiding BGOL.

[jcochrane]

I'm undoubtedly the contrary one here... I'm a great fan of not driving at the limit point, but, in attempting to solve a problem I had a dozen or so years ago of trying to headbutt the horizon, I resolved to never (great word that) enter a corner at a speed I wouldn't be happy to give it large amounts of right pedal through the whole corner.

Strangely, it takes quite a lot of self-confidence to go slower than you can, but doing so really unlocks huge progress in your driving. It gives you a lot more time to decide what you want to be doing rather than what you need to be doing.

Amen to that. The second paragraph says it particularly well. You're not the only contrary one, there are quite a few of us who agree. I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say probably my fault for not being more clear.

[Horse]

I'm undoubtedly the contrary one here... I'm a great fan of not driving at the limit point, but, in attempting to solve a problem I had a dozen or so years ago of trying to headbutt the horizon, I resolved to never (great word that) enter a corner at a speed I wouldn't be happy to give it large amounts of right pedal through the whole corner.

Strangely, it takes quite a lot of self-confidence to go slower than you can, but doing so really unlocks huge progress in your driving. It gives you a lot more time to decide what you want to be doing rather than what you need to be doing.

Amen to that. The second paragraph says it particularly well. You're not the only contrary one, there are quite a few of us who agree. I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say probably my fault for not being more clear.

I attended Gareth's Berks driving day in January this year, and my throttle use into corners came under scrutiny. I've been - I'll admit it - struggling at times to force myself to slow earlier and slow more before corners.

Previously I'd try to enter maintaining momentum, then add a bit of throttle. Now I try to (subject to suitability of corner, it took me a while to work that out, then I saw a post in a linked thread which already had it . . . ) be on the gas earlier.

Ironically, this is what I'd teach riders to do

[jcochrane]

I'm undoubtedly the contrary one here... I'm a great fan of not driving at the limit point, but, in attempting to solve a problem I had a dozen or so years ago of trying to headbutt the horizon, I resolved to never (great word that) enter a corner at a speed I wouldn't be happy to give it large amounts of right pedal through the whole corner.

Strangely, it takes quite a lot of self-confidence to go slower than you can, but doing so really unlocks huge progress in your driving. It gives you a lot more time to decide what you want to be doing rather than what you need to be doing.

Amen to that. The second paragraph says it particularly well. You're not the only contrary one, there are quite a few of us who agree. I think you may have misunderstood what I was trying to say probably my fault for not being more clear.

Possibly - I thought your post referred more to the turning phase than pre-turning phase...

Thought it must be the case. Thanks for bringing it up though and avoiding any confusion by others.

I describe your first paragraph to drivers as slowing down below their comfort level so that they are then comfortable and confident in adding throttle through the whole of the bend.

[Horse]

It seems most are saying then the strict adherence to BGOL is a bad idea. It needs some flexibility.

TBH the only reason i'm still dwelling on it is that I have my first ROSPA test coming up soon. All examiners have different standards and the only way to guarantee success is to do it exactly be the book. Problem is, I don't think the book conveys it's intention correctly.

I think the best option for my test is to select a lower gear 100 yds out and hope the examiner sees the sense in it rather than telling me I've chosen the wrong gear and should have waited longer as

. . . And hope that the examiner doesn't ask you to take the turn at 99yds