The brake gear overlap

[jlsmith]

I have followed this on and off and have to say I just don't get the point of avoiding BGOL other than enjoying the challenge of doing so. As it seems to be something confessedly difficult to describe and is better observed, is there a good video demonstrating how to avoid BGOL, and, more importantly, commenting why it is good for you? (Apologies if someone has posted one already - I have missed it if so.)

[trashbat]

Out of interest, how was that video produced, i.e. how did you record the brake inputs etc? OBD-II or something more Heath Robinson?

[jlsmith]

Thank you very much for digging this out - the video was helpful in demonstrating BG separation in practice.

I also enjoyed the Corsa driver's overtake at the end. A quick dart to the left to ensure minimum visibility and then pop out into the open

[Carbon Based]

6th is not likely to be a responsive gear, so at this point you have temporarily deviated from Roadcraft advice.

Your plan to take a side turning changes the status quo - change to a responsive gear based on your driving plan.

I like this idea of the higher gears being acceptably out of Roadcraft's advice, and that returning to an intermediate gear is getting back on track, rather than using gears to slow.

[Rick101]

Good video, thanks for posting though clutch isn't shown on there or am I mistaken?

[Gareth]

I like this idea of the higher gears being acceptably out of Roadcraft's advice, and that returning to an intermediate gear is getting back on track, rather than using gears to slow.

Sometimes the idea of selecting a lower gear to 'steady' the car before a downhill section is also useful, making sure that initially the same speed is maintained.

Back to 'responsive': handy to test how the car behaves at different fixed speeds in different gears. For example, on a dual-carriageway or motorway at 60 mph, how does it respond to more accelerator in each of the possible gears and how does it respond to less? Same again at 40 or 50 mph on a rural NSL road.

[martine]

Thank you very much for digging this out - the video was helpful in demonstrating BG separation in practice.

I also enjoyed the Corsa driver's overtake at the end. A quick dart to the left to ensure minimum visibility and then pop out into the open

+1

I witnessed something very similar recently with a Range Rover overtaking a tractor...it made my stomach turn...I thought I was going to witness a head-on.

[Carbon Based]

That video also illustrates moving out but not committing to the overtake while said corsa gets themself sorted out.

StressedDave, nice use of video, vintage or otherwise!

[hir]

I'll have a good read though this weekend. I'm only going off verbal advise from observers that you must 100% separate and not touch clutch until your other foot is clear of the brake and over the accelerator.
I know Roadcraft advocates separation but need to clarify exactly what the instruction is.

Your observers are talking rubbish... 100% separation means that the gearchange is not started until the braking has finished, not some arbitrary rule about not touching the clutch until your foot is over the accelerator.

+1

Ask your observers to justify their assertion - challenge them to state their authority for such a stupid statement. Don't be afraid to ask them. And don't be afraid to challenge their answers. You now know that they won't have a rational answer.

Edited to add - PS: Don't accept an answer along the lines of... "It's what the examiners expect. You'll fail if you do anything else". They don't and you won't. Good luck.

[Kimosabe]

I'll have a good read though this weekend. I'm only going off verbal advise from observers that you must 100% separate and not touch clutch until your other foot is clear of the brake and over the accelerator.
I know Roadcraft advocates separation but need to clarify exactly what the instruction is.

Your observers are talking rubbish... 100% separation means that the gearchange is not started until the braking has finished, not some arbitrary rule about not touching the clutch until your foot is over the accelerator.

+1

Ask your observers to justify their assertion - challenge them to state their authority for such a stupid statement. Don't be afraid to ask them. And don't be afraid to challenge their answers. You now know that they won't have a rational answer.

Edited to add - PS: Don't accept an answer along the lines of... "It's what the examiners expect. You'll fail if you do anything else". They don't and you won't. Good luck.

I'd go one further and say don't accept any answer until you have conducted extensive research of your own outside of the confines of accepted dogma. I haven't owned a car which didn't brake in a relatively straight line under braking, while changing gear and I'm itching to learn H&T but in order to learn this, I'll have to do so outside of the IAM and RoADAR. Why? "Because that's aggressive racing driving". Coming from people who have spent zero time on a track...

The answers I was given by a couple of National Observers about this, among other things during IAM observer training recently, were symptomatic of an organisation with a very fixed position which does not like questions that challenge the status quo beyond their well rehearsed and very limited list of 'answers'....which are pseudo answers with little basis in (modern) fact or reality. They are well meaning people but I don't get why they limit their teaching. To me, what the IAM style of enforcing technique over output results in, is a removal of responsibility from the driver who may have already developed a perfectly safe and reasonable style of their own.

[skodatezzer]

I'll have a good read though this weekend. I'm only going off verbal advise from observers that you must 100% separate and not touch clutch until your other foot is clear of the brake and over the accelerator.
I know Roadcraft advocates separation but need to clarify exactly what the instruction is.

Your observers are talking rubbish... 100% separation means that the gearchange is not started until the braking has finished, not some arbitrary rule about not touching the clutch until your foot is over the accelerator.

+1

Ask your observers to justify their assertion - challenge them to state their authority for such a stupid statement. Don't be afraid to ask them. And don't be afraid to challenge their answers. You now know that they won't have a rational answer.

Edited to add - PS: Don't accept an answer along the lines of... "It's what the examiners expect. You'll fail if you do anything else". They don't and you won't. Good luck.

I'd go one further and say don't accept any answer until you have conducted extensive research of your own outside of the confines of accepted dogma. I haven't owned a car which didn't brake in a relatively straight line under braking, while changing gear and I'm itching to learn H&T but in order to learn this, I'll have to do so outside of the IAM and RoADAR. Why? "Because that's aggressive racing driving". Coming from people who have spent zero time on a track...

The answers I was given by a couple of National Observers about this, among other things during IAM observer training recently, were symptomatic of an organisation with a very fixed position which does not like questions that challenge the status quo beyond their well rehearsed and very limited list of 'answers'....which are pseudo answers with little basis in (modern) fact or reality. They are well meaning people but I don't get why they limit their teaching. To me, what the IAM style of enforcing technique over output results in, is a removal of responsibility from the driver who may have already developed a perfectly safe and reasonable style of their own.[/quote]

You haven't met the East Surrey contingent, have you?

[jcochrane]

One of the questions I ask is are there any circumstances where BGOL is OK. they nearly all say yes and recite some situations. My question to them is when they do BGOL how do they brake, change gear and increase rpm for car sympathy all at the same time. If heel n toe is a big no no then what technique do they use or does car sympathy not matter?

As others have said, ask questions, use common sense and don't just accept what they say.

Most of these volunteers do a great job but there are a few who seem to recite some point of dogma with an air self importance and superiority.

[Kimosabe]

You haven't met the East Surrey contingent, have you? [/quote]

No but if they're a breath of fresh air when it comes to IAM AD I'd be very happy to.

[skodatezzer]

You haven't met the East Surrey contingent, have you?

No but if they're a breath of fresh air when it comes to IAM AD I'd be very happy to. [/quote]
Oh, we are, believe me we are. What Head Office doesn't know their little hearts need not grieve over. Some of us actually enjoy driving too! You'll meet quite a few of us on here, and at ADUK driving days. Me, jcochrane, vanman, gannet.......

[zadocbrown]

I don't think it's normally self importance. Just comprehension deficit, shall we say.... It's pretty much what Dave says - being taught GCSE by someone who got a C grade last term. Of course they may hold useful information, but they are usually limited in their driving and more so their teaching ability. Hence they fall back on prescription, unsure what else to do.