The brake gear overlap

[Silk]

The object of the exercise is simply to avoid using the clutch friction surfaces to slow the car. No more, no less.

So, if I am driving an automatic and choose to select a lower gear manually before I have achieved a sufficiently slow(er) speed by braking, that is OK?

Go away and learn how automatics work. Then you'll see how silly that sounds.

[Silk]

Overlapping is depressing the clutch whilst you are still on the brake.

No it's not.

[TR4ffic]

It's BRAKE GEAR OVERLAP (BGOL), not BRAKE CLUTCH OVERLAP (BCOL)...

Depressing the clutch when braking to a stop isn't overlapping.

BGOL when turning into junctions as per Roadcraft if you wish. Other than that, it is perfectly easy to separate every other gear change*. If, when out on the open road, you find that you are having to overlap then there is something else that you are doing wrong...

* Other than perhaps the steep downhill sharp bend scenario

[titian]

The object of the exercise is simply to avoid using the clutch friction surfaces to slow the car. No more, no less.

So, if I am driving an automatic and choose to select a lower gear manually before I have achieved a sufficiently slow(er) speed by braking, that is OK?

Go away and learn how automatics work. Then you'll see how silly that sounds.

What I might have expected an "Observer" to say was that although you are driving an automatic you still need to adhere to the "system", IPSGA, and fully adjust your speed by either (or both) acceleration sense and braking before selecting the appropriate gear for the corner - just as you ought with a manual gearbox.

I really hope that your Associates get something better than I did by way of an answer!

[zadocbrown]

But in an auto you are mostly having either brake gear overlap or acceleration gear overlap. So how are you justifying that in terms of the system? The whole way of thinking is absurd and modern vehicles are showing that up.

[titian]

But in an auto you are mostly having either brake gear overlap or acceleration gear overlap. So how are you justifying that in terms of the system? The whole way of thinking is absurd and modern vehicles are showing that up.

OK, just to put some flesh on the bones, I am approaching a blind bend because the road follows, to the left, around a country restuarant, no pavement, the road meets the walls of the building.

To gain more controll of my automatic car I am going to use the paddles to activate manual override in order that I don't get the "pulling" effect of the automatic once I lift off the brakes at walking pace. I am planning to be off the brakes say 15 yards before the blind turn and then to paddle select the manual gear - which at that speed I expect to be 2nd gear. So I travel a few yards, in gear, before the bend , under balanced neutral acceleration to the point where the limit point runs away and I accelerate and either continue to use the manual box or slip back into auto.

That procedure ensures I'm off the brakes before I select the gear for the bend, perhaps not classical IPSGA but as close as is possible in an automatic car - and is a darn site better than wallowing around the bend in the auto gear that the vehicle would have selected without manual intervention.

[Gromit37]

Overlapping is depressing the clutch whilst you are still on the brake.

No it's not.

Hmmm... do we take your word for it or that of an instructor at a major Police driving school? I wonder who is in the best position to know what overlap is?

What happens when you depress the clutch? You disengage the gearbox from the engine. Therefore by definition you are overlapping gears and braking. Whether or not you engage a different gear whilst the clutch is down is pretty much irrelevant. You could change your mind and, if you so wish, just bring the clutch back up whilst still braking.

[vonhosen]

Overlapping is depressing the clutch whilst you are still on the brake.

No it's not.

Of course BGOL is only where the the clutch is depressed for the purposes of changing gear (& unless you pulled up in the gear you are pulling away in, there is a gear change going on), even outside of that an overlap is occurring (between clutch & brake) when you depress the clutch whilst still on the brakes (they aren't independent actions after all when combined). It's just an overlap of clutch & brake, not a BGOL.

The major points being made though are that the overlap occurs when the clutch is depressed, not when the clutch is being released & it's all about when in the observer/examiner's view any such overlap could reasonably have been avoided & that assessment is irrespective of the quality of any outcome.
i.e. No matter how good the gear change was you've still done in their view an unnecessary overlap (because it could have been done without it) & that's fallen short of their ideal.

[waremark]

But in an auto you are mostly having either brake gear overlap or acceleration gear overlap. So how are you justifying that in terms of the system? The whole way of thinking is absurd and modern vehicles are showing that up.

OK, just to put some flesh on the bones, I am approaching a blind bend because the road follows, to the left, around a country restuarant, no pavement, the road meets the walls of the building.

To gain more controll of my automatic car I am going to use the paddles to activate manual override in order that I don't get the "pulling" effect of the automatic once I lift off the brakes at walking pace. I am planning to be off the brakes say 15 yards before the blind turn and then to paddle select the manual gear - which at that speed I expect to be 2nd gear. So I travel a few yards, in gear, before the bend , under balanced neutral acceleration to the point where the limit point runs away and I accelerate and either continue to use the manual box or slip back into auto.

That procedure ensures I'm off the brakes before I select the gear for the bend, perhaps not classical IPSGA but as close as is possible in an automatic car - and is a darn site better than wallowing around the bend in the auto gear that the vehicle would have selected without manual intervention.

Depending on the particular gearbox, you might get a smoother or more pleasant result by paddling down through the gears sequentially while braking. Otherwise you are leaving the auto box to make its own decisions about how many gears to go down through before you interfere manually. Like to suggest possible advantages and disadvantages? (I could justify either technique, depending on car and circumstances. I am confident that either could be compatible with getting a Distinction in an IAM Masters test).

[waremark]

Overlapping is depressing the clutch whilst you are still on the brake.

No it's not.

Of course BGOL is only where the the clutch is depressed for the purposes of changing gear (& unless you pulled up in the gear you are pulling away in, there is a gear change going on), even outside of that an overlap is occurring (between clutch & brake) when you depress the clutch whilst still on the brakes (they aren't independent actions after all when combined). It's just an overlap of clutch & brake, not a BGOL.

The major points being made though are that the overlap occurs when the clutch is depressed, not when the clutch is being released & it's all about when in the observer/examiner's view any such overlap could reasonably have been avoided & that assessment is irrespective of the quality of any outcome.
i.e. No matter how good the gear change was you've still done in their view an unnecessary overlap (because it could have been done without it) & that's fallen short of their ideal.

VH explained his understanding of the terminology of BGOL long ago. I am not sure that all examiners for IAM and Rospa share the same understanding. Indeed, I don't think they do - I think that what most look for is that the left hand stays on the steering wheel until the end of braking, and that the right foot is on the accelerator for rev matching before the clutch is released. Some would consider declutching before completion of braking as partial overlap, others would consider it separation. I don't think it matters much which one you call it - and actually I don't think it matters if you do it, indeed I find it quite hard to find a justification for full separation.

[vonhosen]

Of course BGOL is only where the the clutch is depressed for the purposes of changing gear (& unless you pulled up in the gear you are pulling away in, there is a gear change going on), even outside of that an overlap is occurring (between clutch & brake) when you depress the clutch whilst still on the brakes (they aren't independent actions after all when combined). It's just an overlap of clutch & brake, not a BGOL.

The major points being made though are that the overlap occurs when the clutch is depressed, not when the clutch is being released & it's all about when in the observer/examiner's view any such overlap could reasonably have been avoided & that assessment is irrespective of the quality of any outcome.
i.e. No matter how good the gear change was you've still done in their view an unnecessary overlap (because it could have been done without it) & that's fallen short of their ideal.

VH explained his understanding of the terminology of BGOL long ago. I am not sure that all examiners for IAM and Rospa share the same understanding. Indeed, I don't think they do - I think that what most look for is that the left hand stays on the steering wheel until the end of braking, and that the right foot is on the accelerator for rev matching before the clutch is released. Some would consider declutching before completion of braking as partial overlap, others would consider it separation. I don't think it matters much which one you call it - and actually I don't think it matters if you do it, indeed I find it quite hard to find a justification for full separation.

Well it's how all the very senior IAM examiners & standard bearers (that I've driven with) used to view it when I was last in a car with them, but of course their views may have changed.

I also accept (indeed I am quite sure) that not 'all' IAM/Rospa examiners will take the same view of what amounts to a BGOL.

In saying what I say I'm not suggesting either that I believe separation is important or necessary for good driving. I believe I've made my personal view on that quite clear previously too.

[Gromit37]

Irrespective of whether you call it overlap or partial overlap and whether you agree with it's use or not, there quite clearly is an overlap. Bearing in mind the purpose and history of Roadcraft and the 'System' , I would suggest that if anybody is to be the arbiter of what constitutes bgol on ADUK, VH is probably the prime candidate. If you disagree, then fair enough, but I doubt your word on the subject will carry any more than that of VH when it comes to 'the system'.

And irrespective of personal feeling toward a particular technique, as it stands, you may well have to justify not using it depending on which organisation is testing you and you may well not pass the test. If you tried to pass a GCSE in Maths by demonstrating your profound understanding of Shakespeare, I suspect you would fail for much the same reason. You follow the syllabus and if you don't like it, choose a different one.

If you can do it, great. If you can't see above. If you choose not to use in real life, fine. If you have a 'better' method, don't jam it down the throats of others who cannot or do not use it (the usual curit being H & T).

[Rick101]

Come to the conclusion it's a total mess. Nobody from the top to the bottom seems to be able to give a definitive instruction with all in agreeance. Nobody seems to be able to give clear proof their system is better. Seems to me that If there is that much confusion over trying to attain something that nobody really knows what it is, it's not really worth doing.

Always keen to learn buy this is something the teaching organisations needs to either give a definitive instruction on or just forget altogether.

[Gromit37]

With all due respect, I suspect you had made up your mind before even posting your original thoughts. At the end of the day, nobody forces you to do it. If you want to improve your driving, there are other ways than simply following Roadcraft, IAM or RoSPA routes. It's not really a deal breaker if some of the ADUK population can't agree on something, it's a pretty small percentage of the overall driving community. I can't see the point of following football, but millions do, and how many of those agree on which team is best?

There are plenty of people who can tell you why it is done and can demonstrate it in action. There are those that can demonstrate heel and toe. There are probably people who can do it whilst singing Rule Brittania, tap dancing and juggling three kittens at the same time. As with many things in life there are various options that can be used and they can all be recommended and defended by some, discarded and even ridiculed by others.

God forbid everybody finally agrees on something. The world would explode!

[Rick101]

No not at all, was looking for a genuine solution to a problem.

Might be easy for you to to what you think is right but that doesn't mean the next person agrees with your technique.

I think the information in Road craft which is what most people seem to work to needs revising. It needs to give some clear must and must not's. That way their position can be clear and people can choose whether to use it or not.

A simple one liner about clutch use and what is regarded as the start of the gear change would be helpful to many I'm sure.