Overtaking in a built up 40 limit

[jlsmith]

Hello,

Quick question for views please.

I was driving up the B245 a couple of evenings ago (in the dark), as one does. The road (at the point where I was at) is a 40mph limit road taking traffic out of Tonbridge and north to the A21. It is quite wide in places and, in places, has good long sight lines.

I caught up with a car which was travelling about 30mph. For about 1/2 a mile I followed it through a narrower section, past a filling station and then to a section which opens up here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.21045 ... !2e0?hl=en

Although GSV can be deceptive you can see a great long way into the distance. The minivan and car in the pic are broadly in the same place as myself and my leader (though I think we were a few yards further back). As the road straightened, there were no cars ahead and none advancing towards us - ie the full road into the distance completely clear.

So my question is, that, as I moved to the right and accelerated past at 40mph, what was the reaction of the overtaken one?

a) None whatsoever
b) Flashing lights, peeping horn, flash flash flash, peeping horn. Flash flash. Followed by a long regaling story to whoever would listen in the days that follow as to the foolish idiots on the roads and my child could have been KILLED BY THAT MORON

What would yours have been? As advanced drivers I'm sure you would have all kept your cool under such intense provocation as being overtaken by AN IDIOT. But was there anything wrong with it? Not looking for approbation or confirmation, just genuinely perplexed.

Thanks!

[fungus]

One thought crossed my mind. There are junctions to the left and right. If you decide to overtake, would you be able to return to the left within half the distance you could see to be clear?

[jlsmith]

In the sense that both junctions were empty and the road ahead was clear, yes. And I was back on the left side before reaching the junction on the left. I think that answers your question but if not please clarify?

[revian]

I wouldn't have given any sign of reaction...

1. Looking at GSV there are house drives on the right before the junction...
2. I might have, inadvertently, pushed above 40mph to 'get it done'...

I guess it's a judgement call and I know I'm often (over?) cautious...

[gannet]

definitely a judgement call, but too many 'what ifs' for me in that particular scenario.

I would not have reacted adversely to your maneuver though, I'd have been more likely to assist you by slowing further...

[Horse]

Rather usefully, GSV also gives us an idea of the view you would have had from the offside:
https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?ll=51.21 ... 8&t=h&z=11

Specifically, the view you might have had into any side turning on the right - and the view emerging drivers (who would mainly be looking to their right - I'd imagine that was clear otherwise you wouldn't have been even considering overtaking! - could have had of you.

[akirk]

I think you need to split the two questions which are inherent in your original post:
- what was the reaction, and was that appropriate
- was it a good / sensible move (or not)

reactions are not always appropriate - another motorist might not read / understand the road in the same way, may be of the tut-tut school at the thought of anyone ever overtaking etc. - so their reaction is not necessarily a reason not to overtake... However the flip side is that a part of AD is managing the other road users - so not giving them reason to rage might be a part of your plan...

was it a good move or not - well, difficult to tell over the internet, but you do mention it was in the dark and I would always have a concern in an area with houses in the dark whatever the speed limit as you can't entirely predict or manage the consequences of for example a child running out. Bearing in mind also that we are at that time of year when it is dark early enough for children to be out - and it is halloween / bonfire night etc. when children might be out in the evening - I would probably have been extra cautious and not overtaken...

you also would know the route ahead and whether there might be another opportunity soon to overtake in a better place - we don't know that, so again difficult to judge...

but I think that the key here is to remember that the decision making process encompasses far more factors than just road / speed limit / other cars

Alasdair

[jlsmith]

Thank you

yes there was no-one looking to emerge from the right. for me this was as clear an opportunity to overtake as one might ever have...

I appreciate it's difficult to make a judgement from photos, but the fact that it was dark is of course relevant. However the road is well lit, there were no pedestrians (confident of that) and there was no traffic ahead travelling in either direction.

I just think there is a mindset around that it is practically illegal to overtake in built-up areas. It does annoy me a bit when the other car was rolling along at 30mph in a 40 AND also expected me to follow them patiently all the way down a wide straight road!

[akirk]

I just think there is a mindset around that it is practically illegal to overtake in built-up areas. It does annoy me a bit when the other car was rolling along at 30mph in a 40 AND also expected me to follow them patiently all the way down a wide straight road!

There is a mindset as you describe - but not without good reason - it is much rarer for it to be safe to drive at the speed limit in a built up area than it would be in less complex environments such as outside a connurbation...

Alasdair

[michael769]

In the sense that both junctions were empty and the road ahead was clear, yes. And I was back on the left side before reaching the junction on the left. I think that answers your question but if not please clarify?

I am not sure I'd agree that you could see well enough into the junctions to conclude they were empty. But what makes me more nervous is the number of openings and the lack of visibility into them. I'd argue they were a bigger worry than the junctions as any road users emerging from them would have a poorer view than anyone using the junctions.

I recognize that being dark it would be easier to get an earlier view of cars from their headlamps, but cycles are not always so well lit, and those openings give too many opportunities for a pedestrian to "suddenly come from nowhere" for comfort. A pedestrian wearing dark clothes would not show up well against those hedges, and

It is a marginal situation though, certainly not worthy of a reaction from the overtakee.

[Horse]

you do mention it was in the dark and I would always have a concern in an area with houses in the dark whatever the speed limit as you can't entirely predict or manage the consequences of for example a child running out. Bearing in mind also that we are at that time of year when it is dark early enough for children to be out - and it is halloween / bonfire night etc. when children might be out in the evening -

And those Trick or Treat (AKA 'demanding money with menaces') kids dressed head-to-foot in black . . .

there were no pedestrians (confident of that)

Put your life on it? Or theirs? Perhaps ask why there's not a 60 limit there . . . ?

yes there was no-one looking to emerge from the right.

But plenty of opportunity for that to develop? Stephen Halley's 'Surprise Horizon'.

I just think there is a mindset around that it is practically illegal to overtake in built-up areas.

I think there's a mindset that there are differences between 'legal' and 'great idea'.

Did you consider that your driver might be looking for a side turning? The old blue book Roadcraft had an illustration of exactly that.

[jlsmith]

there were no pedestrians (confident of that)

Put your life on it? Or theirs? Perhaps ask why there's not a 60 limit there . . . ?

I was absolutely sure no-one's life was at risk.

yes there was no-one looking to emerge from the right.

But plenty of opportunity for that to develop? Stephen Halley's 'Surprise Horizon'.

No, not in the short time period in question

I just think there is a mindset around that it is practically illegal to overtake in built-up areas.

I think there's a mindset that there are differences between 'legal' and 'great idea'.

Of course

Did you consider that your driver might be looking for a side turning? The old blue book Roadcraft had an illustration of exactly that.

Yes it could have been possible - if you mean by that a turn to the right, then there were no warning signs that they were about to dart right and in fact they did not do so subsequently.

[WhoseGeneration]

I'm with others here, I wouldn't have overtaken at that point.
As said, the overtakee could have been looking for a turn, or merely one of those who makes assumptions about any limit, not seeing signs.
There's also, as said, the concern about potential pedestrians and the house drives. Remember, many turning left only look right.
So, fraught parent running late to get child to next class in whatever, jumps in car and end of drive, looks right, clear and out.
To meet you head on.
I learnt that lesson a long time ago, luckily with no adverse consequence but it was at a higher speed. I failed to see the exit from a park, on a long straight, where I was overtaking.
Much of AD is appreciating when to hold back, then, when to make progress.

[Horse]

yes there was no-one looking to emerge from the right.

But plenty of opportunity for that to develop? Stephen Halley's 'Surprise Horizon'.

No, not in the short time period in question

You'll need to explain that one for me. How do you know at which - short - instant someone is going to emerge?

Did you consider that your driver might be looking for a side turning? The old blue book Roadcraft had an illustration of exactly that.

Yes it could have been possible - if you mean by that a turn to the right, then there were no warning signs that they were about to dart right and in fact they did not do so subsequently.

So someone driving slowly approaching several potential side turnings? Do you believe that drivers will always signal?

[jlsmith]

You definitely know someone isn't going to emerge if there's no-one there.

I don't believe drivers will always signal, but drivers who are looking for something uncertainly often give off clues which are different from driving slowly in a straight line. In any case there was no right turn at the point I overtook.

I should say thanks for all the comments - I appreciate it's a bit difficult to judge based on a GSV view but helpful comments from all.