The John Miles method of cornering.

[true blue]

I find it much easier to get the late apex line (I think of it as a 'deep' line - not sure why, but maybe it's a phrase I've picked up elsewhere) on left hand bends than on right hand bends. Is that a symptom of being too close to the verge on the approach, and having little choice but to try and follow the geometrical line? Or am I just doing it wrong?

Does anyone else find this? Any tips to deal with it?

[jcochrane]

I find it much easier to get the late apex line (I think of it as a 'deep' line - not sure why, but maybe it's a phrase I've picked up elsewhere) on left hand bends than on right hand bends. Is that a symptom of being too close to the verge on the approach, and having little choice but to try and follow the geometrical line? Or am I just doing it wrong?

Does anyone else find this? Any tips to deal with it?

A problem that most people have. It is not your approach position that is the reason for cutting across but psychological and the way you use the eyes. To hold the approach position/line it feels like you are running off the road to the left as the left kerb appears to come round in front of you and because of this the centre of the eye becomes focused on the foreground between the kerb line and the centre of the road. As we know the car tends to go where the eye is looking.
The solution is to keep the eyes up looking to the most distant point of view and use the elongated cells at the side of the eyes for peripheral vision to ascertain lateral positioning on the road. It takes a bit of practice to make yourself aware of and to use peripheral vision but worth the effort to then use it all the time and not just for bends. Practice on a straight piece of road and whilst keeping your head still and looking up ahead as far as you can try and become aware of your peripheral vision, the movement of the two edges of the road rushing past, and how to use the information gained for lateral positioning.

[TripleS]

I find it much easier to get the late apex line (I think of it as a 'deep' line - not sure why, but maybe it's a phrase I've picked up elsewhere) on left hand bends than on right hand bends. Is that a symptom of being too close to the verge on the approach, and having little choice but to try and follow the geometrical line? Or am I just doing it wrong?

Does anyone else find this? Any tips to deal with it?

A problem that most people have. It is not your approach position that is the reason for cutting across but psychological and the way you use the eyes. To hold the approach position/line it feels like you are running off the road to the left as the left kerb appears to come round in front of you and because of this the centre of the eye becomes focused on the foreground between the kerb line and the centre of the road. As we know the car tends to go where the eye is looking.
The solution is to keep the eyes up looking to the most distant point of view and use the elongated cells at the side of the eyes for peripheral vision to ascertain lateral positioning on the road. It takes a bit of practice to make yourself aware of and to use peripheral vision but worth the effort to then use it all the time and not just for bends. Practice on a straight piece of road and whilst keeping your head still and looking up ahead as far as you can try and become aware of your peripheral vision, the movement of the two edges of the road rushing past, and how to use the information gained for lateral positioning.

That's interesting, and maybe helpful to me. One of my problems is wandering about within the lane, and not steering a steady and consistent course. For most practical purposes it doesn't really matter, but I feel it's sloppy and untidy.

[TripleS]

I find it much easier to get the late apex line (I think of it as a 'deep' line - not sure why, but maybe it's a phrase I've picked up elsewhere) on left hand bends than on right hand bends. Is that a symptom of being too close to the verge on the approach, and having little choice but to try and follow the geometrical line? Or am I just doing it wrong?

Does anyone else find this? Any tips to deal with it?

There is no 'late apex' line around a right hand bend - the 'safety line' is around the outside of the bend. If you can't follow that line then your entry speed is too high. Simple as... Fixing it is a bugger though.

It's also the most common mistake I see when coaching.

There are occasions when the view opens up after you've entered the bend and you can crop the corner by straightening it out, but that is, by definition a late apex in any case.

Well in that case I'm guilty of making the most common mistake, because I don't usually hold a close-in nearside position in RH bends until the view opens up. I normally start fairly close to the nearside, but then head for an apex towards the centre-line, and then let the car run out to a more nearside position towards the exit. This is usually done to ease the radius of the curve and give the car an easier time, rather than seeking a straighter line for increased speed through the bend.

You may say that what I'm doing is less than ideal for safety and, strictly speaking, it might be; but TBH I don't think it causes an appreciable reduction in safety. My reasoning is that oncoming drivers generally tend to start out fairly wide on the approach to a LH bend, then move in close to their left at the apex, and then run out wide towards the exit; and they do this in order to increase the effective radius of the curve and thus get through it more quickly and easily. In that case, if we meet somewhere near the apex, they tend to be tucked into the nearside just at the point where I'm out towards the centre-line, and therefore we have decent lateral separation, which I think makes it OK.

In the event that an oncoming vehicle comes into my view, and is taking up too much road space such that it looks like presenting a problem, I still have the option of quickly moving left to compensate for it. On the very rare occasion where I have had to do this, I find that my speed is such that I have a comfortable level of spare grip to enable me to do it without difficulty.

What I've described there is certainly not in accordance with what 'the book' says, but it has proved to be a satisfactory arrangement over a very long period.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[triquet]

One can go round and round on this topic both literally and metaphorically. But sticking to real road driving (excluding track driving which is a different kettle of kippers) bends come in all shapes and sizes and visibility. Frequently the bend does not have a consistent radius: the true apex can be earlier or later than you think for. There is a vast difference between the bend you know, the bend you don't know, and the bend you didn't even know you didn't know (thank you Donald).

I just work on the general principle of plenty of visibility and don't scare the pants of people who might be coming the other way.

[TripleS]

One can go round and round on this topic both literally and metaphorically. But sticking to real road driving (excluding track driving which is a different kettle of kippers) bends come in all shapes and sizes and visibility. Frequently the bend does not have a consistent radius: the true apex can be earlier or later than you think for. There is a vast difference between the bend you know, the bend you don't know, and the bend you didn't even know you didn't know (thank you Donald).

I just work on the general principle of plenty of visibility and don't scare the pants of people who might be coming the other way.

That's right. We don't need the maximum of all things at all times, which is fortunate, coz some factors are in conflict with each other, so we can't have everything; something has to give. What we do need is sufficient of what's really necessary, and then we allow ourselves some leeway elsewhere.

Heh, driving is relatively easy: playing the piano is far more difficult. Oh, sorry; wrong thread...

[Horse]

. . . John Miles' book Expert Driving The Police Way . . . the 'late apex' method

. . . in the Blue Book (1977) and right up to the Yellow book (1997) the diagrams show what is the line of constant radius and no mention of taking a later, sharper line to apex late in the bend.

There's no conflict in advice, just read the accompanying text, e.g. "Keep towards the centre line until you can see clearly ahead."

That way you won't need to worry about where the apex is in terms of 'late', instead break the corner into phases (or zones, areas, just choose a catchy name):
- Approach - where you do all the setty-up stuff
- Entry - appropriate* position on the lane, which becomes:
- Transit - maintain that position (or adapt e.g. if oncoming vehicles, etc.)
- Exit - can be seen, to SVA can be reviewed; if the 'A' [advantage] says there's a benefit from altering your line to 'clip' the apex, then do so. If not, don't**


* I prefer 'safety view advantage', on the basis that 'stability' is part of the 'safe' choice

** e.g. Where the ext from one bend actually forms the entry for another, the opposite way, then your apex 'clip' could actually be the entry position for the second bend. If the second bend goes the same way (e.g. left followed by left) then your exit is not only the entry for the next, but there may be no benefit from any major move across the lane away from the entry position

I call it the 1,2,3 cornering
1. Initial, in the distance, view of the bend; start setting up
2. Entry and transit
3. Exit

Some bends will be clear 1,2,3 (imagine a 180 hairpin with solid obstruction of view), others may be 1,3 - you can see the exit clearly and early (the first JM book diagram and 97 Rc), others 1,2,1,2,1,2,3 - imagine a sequence of bends with no intervening straight roads separating them.

[Astraist]

Just a point on semantics: every turning action of the car produces an apex. The "apex" is the peak of the corner.

Even if you take a line along the outside or inside of the bend without using the width of the lane (or carriageway - if you offside) you still hit an apex, generally at the point before you start unwinding the steering.

[revian]

It's the oncoming early apexers that concern me... AKA... Corner cutters....who often do not seem to look first...

Ian

[Astraist]

Indeed. An oncoming collision at a left hander is just as common as on right handers.

For me, the solution has less to do with my own cornering line but rather to my speed assesment (for other cars) and timing: My speed and deceleration for the bend should allow a faster driver around the bend to complete their manuever around the bend before I get there.

Therefore, I am usually happy to stick to the centerline in a left hander, apex and reach back out, and vice versa with the apex nudging the centerline in a right hander.

[revian]

Heh, driving is relatively easy: playing the piano is far more difficult. Oh, sorry; wrong thread...

...any fool can play the piano... winning is the problem...

[revian]

Indeed. An oncoming collision at a left hander is just as common as on right handers.

For me, the solution has less to do with my own cornering line but rather to my speed assesment (for other cars) and timing: My speed and deceleration for the bend should allow a faster driver around the bend to complete their manuever around the bend before I get there.

where there's one there may be two...

Therefore, I am usually happy to stick to the centerline in a left hander, apex and reach back out, and vice versa with the apex nudging the centerline in a right hander.

I find the 'early apexing' of others a fairly constant risk in town driving so my late apex for view (though I had never called what I do that!) seems sensible!

Is it that people sometimes are in a rush to get across the oncoming traffic into a side road and assume (or probably don't think) it's clear...

Ian

[TripleS]

It's the oncoming early apexers that concern me... AKA... Corner cutters....who often do not seem to look first...

Ian

Oh, sorry: did we just meet, nearly?

[TripleS]

Indeed. An oncoming collision at a left hander is just as common as on right handers.

For me, the solution has less to do with my own cornering line but rather to my speed assesment (for other cars) and timing: My speed and deceleration for the bend should allow a faster driver around the bend to complete their manuever around the bend before I get there.

Therefore, I am usually happy to stick to the centerline in a left hander, apex and reach back out, and vice versa with the apex nudging the centerline in a right hander.

Ahah, is that last bit a touch of support for what I admitted to doing?

[TripleS]

Heh, driving is relatively easy: playing the piano is far more difficult. Oh, sorry; wrong thread...

...any fool can play the piano... winning is the problem...

I'd have thought the power/weight ratio would be a handicap with a piano.