The John Miles method of cornering.

[Astraist]

Ahah, is that last bit a touch of support for what I admitted to doing?

Yes, because I do it, too. If I do not foresee any conflict with oncoming traffic I would come wide into and out of a left-hander, and clip the inside of a right-hander. Such a conflict is usually avoided beforehand by timing my approach to the bend.

[revian]

Heh, driving is relatively easy: playing the piano is far more difficult. Oh, sorry; wrong thread...

...any fool can play the piano... winning is the problem...

I'd have thought the power/weight ratio would be a handicap with a piano.

Surely it depends on what key its in?

[TripleS]

...any fool can play the piano... winning is the problem...

I'd have thought the power/weight ratio would be a handicap with a piano.

Surely it depends on what key its in?

Arrrgh. This forum gets madder by the minute, but it's not all your fault.

[fungus]

I find the 'early apexing' of others a fairly constant risk in town driving so my late apex for view (though I had never called what I do that!) seems sensible!

Is it that people sometimes are in a rush to get across the oncoming traffic into a side road and assume (or probably don't think) it's clear...

Me too. One wonders what must be going through their minds. The blind corner cut is very common on the residential estates around here. It seems that most drivers do not consider what may be hidden in the blind area just beyond the limit point.

[waremark]

Ahah, is that last bit a touch of support for what I admitted to doing?

Yes, because I do it, too. If I do not foresee any conflict with oncoming traffic I would come wide into and out of a left-hander, and clip the inside of a right-hander. Such a conflict is usually avoided beforehand by timing my approach to the bend.

Are you talking about an open bend with good visibility? If so yes, but I think most of us are considering bends where we cannot see whether or not there is anything coming the other way.

[TripleS]

Ahah, is that last bit a touch of support for what I admitted to doing?

Yes, because I do it, too. If I do not foresee any conflict with oncoming traffic I would come wide into and out of a left-hander, and clip the inside of a right-hander. Such a conflict is usually avoided beforehand by timing my approach to the bend.

Are you talking about an open bend with good visibility? If so yes, but I think most of us are considering bends where we cannot see whether or not there is anything coming the other way.

If we have good visibility we can straighten out the bend quite comprehensively.

Where visibility is limited, the method I described might only be applicable at medium to high speed bends. With limited visibility at a slow and tight RH bend, I would probably do no corner cutting at all.

[Astraist]

For open bends I try to straighten them up (a near-geometric apex) with timing my approach to the bend as to deconflict oncoming traffic.

With "blind bends" I might still get an idea of oncoming traffic via crossview, and I still come wide into a left hander so I get a wider view and if a hazard presents itself I can tuck in.

As for a right hander, since I am taking a (very) late apex, my vision should open up before I cut the corner to the centerline and I could judge whether oncoming traffic (if there is any!) poses a hazard.

If I have the view and the road around me is practically empty, I would also offside (where legal) coming into and out of bends in both direction.

[true blue]

There is no 'late apex' line around a right hand bend - the 'safety line' is around the outside of the bend. If you can't follow that line then your entry speed is too high. Simple as... Fixing it is a bugger though.

Well, that's encouraging - good to know that my inability to spot the late apex is because it's not there!

In my case I suspect the reason for my shoddy cornering on right handers is that I apply too much steering, too late, though I'm open to other suggestions. Not necessarily a function of too much speed as not enough time spent preparing for the corner, though I'm well aware that they are two sides of the same coin.

[TripleS]

There is no 'late apex' line around a right hand bend - the 'safety line' is around the outside of the bend. If you can't follow that line then your entry speed is too high. Simple as... Fixing it is a bugger though.

Well, that's encouraging - good to know that my inability to spot the late apex is because it's not there!

In my case I suspect the reason for my shoddy cornering on right handers is that I apply too much steering, too late, though I'm open to other suggestions. Not necessarily a function of too much speed as not enough time spent preparing for the corner, though I'm well aware that they are two sides of the same coin.

Oh I wouldn't rush to the conclusion that your cornering is shoddy, unless you are having some obvious problem with it, and you feel something really needs improving. If you were to take a smooth and reasonably civilised line through the bends, retaining a secure level of grip, and not risking conflict with oncoming traffic, you're doing OK. If you want to analyse it further and refine the process, all well and good, but that's a choice you are free to make.

I must confess I don't understand the point about there being no 'late apex' line around a RH bend. The bend itself might have a fixed apex, which to me means the point at which the minimum radius occurs, but the line we follow when driving is usually going to be somewhat different from the physical line of the bend. Given that we have a range of options for the line we actually take, I don't see why we can't create a late apex on a RH bend, but it does seem to imply the need for a sudden additional steering input, and that might be detrimental to grip and stability.

Huh, after that bit of disharmony on the 'ESP topic, I think I shall retreat to something a little more pleasant.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Tosh]

I don't see why we can't create a late apex on a RH bend, but it does seem to imply the need for a sudden additional steering input, and that might be detrimental to grip and stability.

The entry speed to apex late is lower and the wheels straighten earlier so the car is more stable through the bend. No detriment to stability and speed is matched to vision. Any braking is done with the wheels straight.

Well in that case I'm guilty of making the most common mistake, because I don't usually hold a close-in nearside position in RH bends until the view opens up. I normally start fairly close to the nearside, but then head for an apex towards the centre-line, and then let the car run out to a more nearside position towards the exit. This is usually done to ease the radius of the curve and give the car an easier time, rather than seeking a straighter line for increased speed through the bend.

You may say that what I'm doing is less than ideal for safety and, strictly speaking, it might be; but TBH I don't think it causes an appreciable reduction in safety. My reasoning is that oncoming drivers generally tend to start out fairly wide on the approach to a LH bend, then move in close to their left at the apex, and then run out wide towards the exit; and they do this in order to increase the effective radius of the curve and thus get through it more quickly and easily. In that case, if we meet somewhere near the apex, they tend to be tucked into the nearside just at the point where I'm out towards the centre-line, and therefore we have decent lateral separation, which I think makes it OK.

In the event that an oncoming vehicle comes into my view, and is taking up too much road space such that it looks like presenting a problem, I still have the option of quickly moving left to compensate for it. On the very rare occasion where I have had to do this, I find that my speed is such that I have a comfortable level of spare grip to enable me to do it without difficulty.

What I've described there is certainly not in accordance with what 'the book' says, but it has proved to be a satisfactory arrangement over a very long period.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I appreciate that you say it is a satisfactory arrangement and it does not cause an appreciable reduction in safety but would steering left and having to reduce speed when heading into a right hand bend not be considered evasive action and be detrimental to stability? Even if the tyre grip is comfortable would it not unbalance the car just prior to the turn?

[TripleS]

I don't see why we can't create a late apex on a RH bend, but it does seem to imply the need for a sudden additional steering input, and that might be detrimental to grip and stability.

The entry speed to apex late is lower and the wheels straighten earlier so the car is more stable through the bend. No detriment to stability and speed is matched to vision. Any braking is done with the wheels straight.

Well in that case I'm guilty of making the most common mistake, because I don't usually hold a close-in nearside position in RH bends until the view opens up. I normally start fairly close to the nearside, but then head for an apex towards the centre-line, and then let the car run out to a more nearside position towards the exit. This is usually done to ease the radius of the curve and give the car an easier time, rather than seeking a straighter line for increased speed through the bend.

You may say that what I'm doing is less than ideal for safety and, strictly speaking, it might be; but TBH I don't think it causes an appreciable reduction in safety. My reasoning is that oncoming drivers generally tend to start out fairly wide on the approach to a LH bend, then move in close to their left at the apex, and then run out wide towards the exit; and they do this in order to increase the effective radius of the curve and thus get through it more quickly and easily. In that case, if we meet somewhere near the apex, they tend to be tucked into the nearside just at the point where I'm out towards the centre-line, and therefore we have decent lateral separation, which I think makes it OK.

In the event that an oncoming vehicle comes into my view, and is taking up too much road space such that it looks like presenting a problem, I still have the option of quickly moving left to compensate for it. On the very rare occasion where I have had to do this, I find that my speed is such that I have a comfortable level of spare grip to enable me to do it without difficulty.

What I've described there is certainly not in accordance with what 'the book' says, but it has proved to be a satisfactory arrangement over a very long period.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I appreciate that you say it is a satisfactory arrangement and it does not cause an appreciable reduction in safety but would steering left and having to reduce speed when heading into a right hand bend not be considered evasive action and be detrimental to stability? Even if the tyre grip is comfortable would it not unbalance the car just prior to the turn?

Of course it can be important in some situations, sometimes very important, but I think some people worry too much about unbalancing the car. In normal sensible, steady driving, it isn't going to happen to any extent worth worrying about.

Obviously it is something to be wary of, but when we hear people talking about coming off the throttle gently, as they carefully shift a little more weight onto the front wheels, I wonder if they're making too much fuss about things. I mean to say, good grief, if they worry about balance and the changing weight distribution, what the hell are they going to feel like when they actually have to apply the brakes, at all, let alone firmly or heavily. It doesn't bear thinking about! It's just a thought....

[triquet]

A centipede was happy – quite!
Until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg moves after which?"
This raised her doubts to such a pitch,
She fell exhausted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.

[Tosh]

In normal sensible, steady driving, it isn't going to happen to any extent worth worrying about.

One thing that I have learned about advanced driving is that it can be applied to any vehicle for many different facets of driving. Using the same principles that Jackie Stewart talks about when cornering in an F1 car are the same techniques that I would use in my own car now a 3.0 v6 with 245bhp and rear wheel drive. Those are the same techniques that I use when driving a forty four tonne articulated lorry. The principles of smoothness and weight transfer are all the same. In taking a corner at 160mph in a F1 car, the balance is critical to stability. When taking a corner at 25 mph pulling a tanker with 24,000 litres of liquid sloshing about or a refrigerated load of hanging beef or a top heavy load in a mega cube trailer, weight transfer is critical and moving weight about left to right can put the vehicle on it's side very easily.

Those are the extreme examples but it shows to me that when one or more factors are magnified the need for smoothness becomes critical. While we do no not have the same factors affecting a car that affect an articulated tanker, nor do we have the skills of Mr. Stewart so keeping weight transfer to a minimum, everything smooth and balanced will keep even the most unstable vehicles safely on the road.

[TripleS]

In normal sensible, steady driving, it isn't going to happen to any extent worth worrying about.

One thing that I have learned about advanced driving is that it can be applied to any vehicle for many different facets of driving. Using the same principles that Jackie Stewart talks about when cornering in an F1 car are the same techniques that I would use in my own car now a 3.0 v6 with 245bhp and rear wheel drive. Those are the same techniques that I use when driving a forty four tonne articulated lorry. The principles of smoothness and weight transfer are all the same. In taking a corner at 160mph in a F1 car, the balance is critical to stability. When taking a corner at 25 mph pulling a tanker with 24,000 litres of liquid sloshing about or a refrigerated load of hanging beef or a top heavy load in a mega cube trailer, weight transfer is critical and moving weight about left to right can put the vehicle on it's side very easily.

Those are the extreme examples but it shows to me that when one or more factors are magnified the need for smoothness becomes critical. While we do no not have the same factors affecting a car that affect an articulated tanker, nor do we have the skills of Mr. Stewart so keeping weight transfer to a minimum, everything smooth and balanced will keep even the most unstable vehicles safely on the road.

Well I'm sorry if this looks like nit-picking, but when you say...."nor do we have the skills of Mr. Stewart, so keeping weight transfer to a minimum, everything smooth and balanced will keep even the most unstable vehicles safely on the road", it seems to me to be exaggerating the situation.

We don't need to keep weight transfer to a minimum;, we need to prevent it from becoming excessive and producing instability.

I appreciate that you were quoting extreme examples, and they deserve great respect; but a normal car being driven in a sensible and smooth manner on public roads is not going to get into difficulties on account of a modest amount/rate of weight transfer. The principles involved are pretty clear and undeniable, but we do seem to get in a tizzy rather too readily when contemplating or carrying out perfectly normal manoeuvres IMHO. That's all I'm suggesting.

[Tosh]

I appreciate that you were quoting extreme examples, and they deserve great respect; but a normal car being driven in a sensible and smooth manner on public roads is not going to get into difficulties on account of a modest amount/rate of weight transfer. The principles involved are pretty clear and undeniable, but we do seem to get in a tizzy rather too readily when contemplating or carrying out perfectly normal manoeuvres IMHO. That's all I'm suggesting.

All I was trying to point out was that the principles of smooth driving and cornering can be applied to any vehicle in any situation and even if the factors are exaggerated it will provide the best chance of getting a smooth and safe outcome.

Cornering in a normal road car at a normal (ish) speed will not produce an outcome that will be detrimental to stability but there are factors that might just come up at an inopportune moment that might just cause an exaggeration in one particular area, a sudden loss of grip due to a biker losing his bike on a bend an hour earlier and leaving a nice patch of oil just where grip is needed, for instance.

What I'm trying to show is that while all things are going in the intended direction and as they should then all things should be okay, throw a couple of unexpected factors in the mix and it could get a bit messy.
Would it not be a better outcome to provide the basis of a stable line from the beginning rather than rely on a reserve of tyre grip that might not be there to steer out of trouble mid corner? It might work for you and that I fully accept but it cannot be something that can be applied to any area of driving that goes slightly beyond the parameters of modest weight transfer, cornering forces or tyre or road surface adhesion.