Thinking of IAM

[akirk]

Hi Alisdair

My neighbour is a consultant brain surgeon. He was presumably an excellent brain surgeon before he became a comsultant but to become a consultant he sat up studying theory night after night for months.

Without passing the theory and passing his consultants exams he could not have become a consultant, if he hadn't passed the exams he would still be an excellent brain surgeon albeilt with a less knowledge and he could call himself a consultant .

Precisely

also - you can't say with empirical accuracy that he would have had less knowledge - passing an exam proves what you know on that day, it doesn't prove or imply that you knew less before starting...

Hi Alidair

I could ask him if I wanted empirical accuracy but I can guess what his answer would be. I cannot imagine that my neighbour sat up night after night for months studying to be a consultant brain surgeon and learned nothing other that what he had already known or should have known.

I am sure that there was lots he learned - I have no issue with learning theory, but if he learned it at that stage one assumes that he wasn't having to use that knowledge in the real job previously or he would already have known it - so what was the benefit in the learning...?

If we go back to your original proposition:
- PT2 is more advanced as you have to do a hard theory test
- IAM is less advanced because there is very little theory

I am still not sure you really understand it - theory is all very well, but of its own it doesn't constitute advanced tests / driving... yes, it is more advanced than the lower standard learner test, but there is far more in driving and that is where Advanced driving takes over from the standard test & PT2 - in showing that you can take the theory and actually use it...

it is a simple progression:
- standard learner test - basic theory / basic car control / basic putting it together
- PT2 - increasing the theory / making the pass mark higher
- Advanced Driving - a higher level of driving - knowing the theory inside out & able to put it into practice / higher levels of car control / observation / etc.

your initial concept is I think flawed - just because there is no separate theory test in AD doesn't make it a lower level - it is because it is a higher level that it is no longer useful to know it just theoretically - it has to be demonstrated...

Alasdair

[RobC]

Hi Alisdair

We are just going to have to agree to disagree!

I don't think you can demonstrate all the contents of Roadcraft and The Highway Code in a hours drive.

Initially I was comparing DVSA Pt2 with IAM. DVSA Pt2 requires a stringent theory test to be passed before it can be taken.
The pass rate for Pt1 theory is 49%. For those who progress to Pt2 The pass rate for Pt2 is 45%
The pass rate for IAM is 90% with a minimal theory requirement.

Having taken both tests I have my own opinion of which is the more difficult of the two and also which is carried out more professionally.

Rob

[martine]

I think this interesting debate is about done but just to tidy up a question (I believe from Garrison) much earlier...regarding positioning DVSA style...

The DVSA book 'Driving the essential skills' is meant to contain everything the DVSA expect of a driver and I believe, ADI Part 2.

On positioning for bends (P159 - latest edition) it says:

Left hand bends
- keep to the centre of your lane as you approach
- don't move to the centre of the road to improve your view round the bend

So that's pretty clear and whilst no one can be sure, I suspect 'bold' positioning could result in failure of the ADI P2.

In my opinion it's dumbed down driving with dogmatic rules as above...rather then encouraging the 'thinking driver' - it's not what I call 'advanced' but as has been demonstrated here, everyone has their own idea of what constitutes 'advanced'.

[Gareth]

... but as has been demonstrated here, everyone has their own idea of what constitutes 'advanced'.

My impression is that each person calls 'advanced' that which they found difficult.

[RobC]

I think this interesting debate is about done but just to tidy up a question (I believe from Garrison) much earlier...regarding positioning DVSA style...

The DVSA book 'Driving the essential skills' is meant to contain everything the DVSA expect of a driver and I believe, ADI Part 2.

On positioning for bends (P159 - latest edition) it says:

Left hand bends
- keep to the centre of your lane as you approach
- don't move to the centre of the road to improve your view round the bend

So that's pretty clear and whilst no one can be sure, I suspect 'bold' positioning could result in failure of the ADI P2.

In my opinion it's dumbed down driving with dogmatic rules as above...rather then encouraging the 'thinking driver' - it's not what I call 'advanced' but as has been demonstrated here, everyone has their own idea of what constitutes 'advanced'.

Hi Martin

Driving the essential skills is primarily aimed at learners. You only have to read the book to see that. The DVSA state that DVSA Pt2 test is of an advanced nature. As I said earlier It is not an extended learner test with fewer faults.

When I took My Pt2, I positioned to the centre line on left hand bends where safe. In the recap the examiner stated that my driving was 'Rospa gold standard' and I passed with zero faults. I train PDIs for Pt2 and moving to the centre line on a left hand bend wouldn't be recorded as a fault on Pt2 if it was safe. Of course moving out to the centre line when an oncoming car was offsiding would no doubt result in a fail!

DVSA examiners do not penalise for safe and common sense driving. Over the years I have sat in as a trainer on over 100 DVSA tests from learner to ADI Pt2 & Pt3. I learnt a lot from it and dispelled many 'test myths' and gained an understanding how DVSA examiners mark. When I took my IAM I asked my observer if he would be sitting in on test and he said that 'the examiner wouldn't like that'.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and we obviously have very different experiences of the driving industry.
I will say that I had already come across your Bristol IAM website before our conversation and I think it is an excellent website and seems a very professional organisation and there are some great driving tips on there.
I will therefore agree that opinions of what is advanced differs, but I also think that some organisations are far more advanced and professional than others.

Rob

[WhoseGeneration]

In the recap the examiner stated that my driving was 'Rospa gold standard' and I passed with zero faults.
Rob

Interesting that the examiner for your Pt2 test referenced an organisation which uses amateurs.

[martine]

Driving the essential skills is primarily aimed at learners.

Not so sure about that - the opening sentence on the outside back cover says:
"Whether you're a learner, an experienced driver or a driving instructor, this book is packed full of advice that will help you stay safe on our roads."

As I said earlier it is not an extended learner test with fewer faults. When I took My Pt2, I positioned to the centre line on left hand bends where safe. In the recap the examiner stated that my driving was 'Rospa gold standard' and I passed with zero faults. I train PDIs for Pt2 and moving to the centre line on a left hand bend wouldn't be recorded as a fault on Pt2 if it was safe.

OK the only experience I have of P2 was doing it - so I bow to your experience.

Still don't think it's 'advanced' though

When I took my IAM I asked my observer if he would be sitting in on test and he said that 'the examiner wouldn't like that'.

Our IAM/ROSPA examiner (same guy) keeps encouraging Observers to come along on test but he doesn't get taken up on it.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion

Absolutely

and we obviously have very different experiences of the driving industry.

Funnily enough I asked only last week at a local driving instructors association, who had taken an IAM/ROSPA test and only about 1/3 put their hand up. Chatting with ADI's in the test centre waiting room, more often than not they haven't taken any further training or tests

I will say that I had already come across your Bristol IAM website before our conversation and I think it is an excellent website and seems a very professional organisation and there are some great driving tips on there.

Thanks I will pass that on to our Chief Obs who also looks after our website.

I will therefore agree that opinions of what is advanced differs, but I also think that some organisations are far more advanced and professional than others.

Agreed.

Been an interesting debate and all the best Rob - perhaps we'll get to meet sometime at an ADUK driving day?

[RobC]

In the recap the examiner stated that my driving was 'Rospa gold standard' and I passed with zero faults.
Rob

Interesting that the examiner for your Pt2 test referenced an organisation which uses amateurs.

All the observers in my local Rospa group are full time professional driver trainers. This is because In the fleet driver training industry Rospa gold is the qualification the qualification to have. Especially so if trainers work for the large driver training companies because the holders driving standard is reassessed regularly and not just a one off pass.

[RobC]

Been an interesting debate and all the best Rob - perhaps we'll get to meet sometime at an ADUK driving day?

Good speaking to you Martin, we both seem to have strong views and that to me is a good thing as indifference never changed anyone's opinions.
I do tend to do things other than driving in my spare time but I'm sure we would find plenty to talk about at a driving day!

Rob