Overtaking

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby Lady Godiva » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:47 am


Dear All - has anyone seen the overtaking video that R U local has posted on an 'alternative site'.

It's very good, but I wondered about number three where he overtakes and passes an offside junction with no visibility. I thought this was something we AD tried to avoid?

I don't really want to ask on there, as it can get slightly fractious, but I wondered if anyone has seen it and could help.

Regards
Sally
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Postby Darren » Sun Oct 07, 2007 10:51 am


Is there a link?
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Postby PeteG » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:07 am


LG, I'd just go ahead and ask him himself, even via PM - Reg doesn't go for the "I am better than you and I am right" approach, he's happy to explain even the simplest of points, pointing out things I've misunderstood or misread before. Shy bairns get nowt ;).
"There's always another day, and I would rather miss a few than get one badly wrong." - TripleS, on overtaking.
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Postby ScoobyChris » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:20 am


There's a link here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvrhb1mDkYs

Some of the overtakes and a couple I wouldn't. Apparently his force also doesn't teach offsiding prior to overtaking and tend to favour more of a momentum approach IIRC....

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Postby vonhosen » Sun Oct 07, 2007 11:32 am


He admitted he missed seeing it, but having committed decided it was better to continue.

As a point on this, I think it's important when looking at overtakes, that the mindset is that you don't go if you consider that there isn't sufficient vision for you to be happy that there isn't a junction, rather than you just can't see one.

ie I have sufficient vision to ("can") see there are no junctions there so it's safe (a positive view of your vision), rather than I "can't" see a junction so it's safe (a negative view).

This is what makes me awfully suspicious when people talk about doing a massive number of overtakes in one go, because the vision to see with enough certainty that there are no junctions is rarely available. People tend to concentrate more on the available space on the road ahead, not where there is potential for change hidden from the sides that could alter that space.

If you can't see there isn't a junction (there are places for one to be hidden), hold back & wait for a better opportunity where you can see there isn't one.
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Postby crr003 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:16 pm


ScoobyChris wrote:Apparently his force also doesn't teach offsiding prior to overtaking and tend to favour more of a momentum approach IIRC....

Not sure I've read that. I've read his force doesn't like/teach the overtaking position - closing on the overtakee prior to moving out.
Von and Reg discussed this on Pistonheads (That's the web site isn't it Sally?)
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Postby crr003 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 4:33 pm


vonhosen wrote:ie I have sufficient vision to ("can") see there are no junctions there so it's safe (a positive view of your vision), rather than I "can't" see a junction so it's safe (a negative view).
.......
If you can't see there isn't a junction (there are places for one to be hidden), hold back & wait for a better opportunity where you can see there isn't one.

Would you factor in some kind or probability to a vehicle being present, or 100% decide not to overtake; say you can see an open field gate set back in a hedge row. No activity in the field you can see; no mud on the road to indicate the field's being used. Would you teach to not overtake?
If you could see the gate was closed, would you teach to overtake?
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Postby vonhosen » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:18 pm


crr003 wrote:
vonhosen wrote:ie I have sufficient vision to ("can") see there are no junctions there so it's safe (a positive view of your vision), rather than I "can't" see a junction so it's safe (a negative view).
.......
If you can't see there isn't a junction (there are places for one to be hidden), hold back & wait for a better opportunity where you can see there isn't one.

Would you factor in some kind or probability to a vehicle being present, or 100% decide not to overtake; say you can see an open field gate set back in a hedge row. No activity in the field you can see; no mud on the road to indicate the field's being used. Would you teach to not overtake?
If you could see the gate was closed, would you teach to overtake?


If you can see nothing is there fine, if you can't say it isn't there, wait.

Just as you are at greatest danger from the vehicle towards you haven't seen, so it is with the junction you haven't seen or haven't had sufficient vision into.
When you do an overtake towards a loss of vision you should anticipate a quick quick vehicle towards in your planning. If you see a junction but don't have sufficient depth of vision to see it's clear you should expect the vehicle is there, will pull out & won't look for you.

The fact a junction is seen doesn't mean that an overtake is automatically not on. It's can you do the overtake safely if that unknown happens. If you've sufficient time & space to do it all without the junction or anything in it becoming a problem, then it's fine.

Missing some overtakes you could have done, is preferable to doing one you shouldn't have. You have to live first in order to fight another day.

I am cautious where dense vegetation close to the roadway & poor lateral vision are concerned. So many concealed entrances out there & just one mistake can be enough for tragedy.
Last edited by vonhosen on Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Big Err » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:20 pm


My thoughts for what they're worth, bearing in mind I am not familiar with the roads the video was taken on and therefore my comments are based on the limited field of vision provided and lack of local knowledge.

Overtake 15 - Overtake takes enough time on the other side of the road with forward visibility largely obscured by the caravan for a vehicle to travel the distance initially seen to be clear from the opposite direction?

Overtake 16 - Quite a large zone of invisibility in the dip which could easily mask a vehicle - cyclist etc.

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Postby vonhosen » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:25 pm


Big Err wrote:My thoughts for what they're worth, bearing in mind I am not familiar with the roads the video was taken on and therefore my comments are based on the limited field of vision provided and lack of local knowledge.

Overtake 15 - Overtake takes enough time on the other side of the road with forward visibility largely obscured by the caravan for a vehicle to travel the distance initially seen to be clear from the opposite direction?

Overtake 16 - Quite a large zone of invisibility in the dip which could easily mask a vehicle - cyclist etc.

Eric
back from IAM conference where I learnt about cycle training????????


The camera will give a much narrower perspective of the vision available than that which the human eye will have. In both those overtakes I can entertain the fact that Reg had better vision than the camera leads us to believe.
He certainly appeared to have a lot of good lateral vision (in 15) for a long time in the build up.
In 16 he would have been higher than the dash mounted camera.
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Postby crr003 » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:09 pm


Big Err wrote:back from IAM conference where I learnt about cycle training????????

Quite. And there was not enough time for questions.....a happy coincidence?
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Postby Big Err » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:48 pm


crr003 wrote:
Big Err wrote:back from IAM conference where I learnt about cycle training????????

Quite. And there was not enough time for questions.....a happy coincidence?


But these 'killer roads' do exist. I was on one on the way home last night, so I drove as fast as I could to minimise my exposure to risk on it........
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Postby PeterE » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:57 pm


Does anyone know what part of the country these overtakes were filmed in and what car he was driving?

Obviously he has some strong acceleration at his disposal :P
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Postby Angus » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:21 pm


PeterE wrote:Does anyone know what part of the country these overtakes were filmed in and what car he was driving?

Obviously he has some strong acceleration at his disposal :P


All the actual roads are listed on PH - IIRC they're around Lancashire
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Postby vonhosen » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:43 pm


PeterE wrote:Does anyone know what part of the country these overtakes were filmed in and what car he was driving?

Obviously he has some strong acceleration at his disposal :P


Overtake 1 – A675 Bolton Road, between Riley Green Switch Road and Junction 3 of the M65.

Overtakes 2 to 7 – A59 between Samlesbury and Gisburn.

Overtakes 8 and 9 – A682 between Gisburn and Long Preston.

Overtakes 10 to 13 – B6479 between Settle and Ribble Head.

Overtakes 14 to 17 – B6255 between Ribble Head and Hawes.


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