Lack Confidence with overtaking

Discussion on Advanced and Defensive Driving.

Postby foxtrot_mike » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:25 pm


Something that has come back to haunt me when I drove home earlier is that my lack of confidence with Overtaking

One of the reasons for doing the IAM was to perhaps improve my confidence in this area, Overall im a confident driver, and id say that even before IAM days.

But throughout my observed runs I only came across 2 opportunities to overtake (on single carriageway), the first one my observer asked me if I was going to overtake, i immediately said no and explained that there was too many side road junctions.

The second one was a tractor, but I dont have any problems with slow moving vehicles.

Ive not had very many opportunities to practice overtakes lately or on my observed runs, but I had a vehicle in front of me doing 40mph which i reached in a good open road which I had 2 opportunities i missed both.

I took him on the 3rd attempt but the overtake was awful, to say the least I stuffed the gears up and broke the speed limit :twisted: I wasn't impressed.

I think the problem is still speed and distance perception which I still have a big problem with although this seems to be better in other aspects of my driving.

Its not clear to me what is expected from the IAM test in terms of Overtaking, id have liked to have looked at this more.

So what can I do?
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Postby ScoobyChris » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:38 pm


Overtaking, whilst remaining entirely legal is particularly difficult in this day and age and it's not uncommon to have observed drives//the exam with no overtaking opportunities presenting themselves.

Imho, you have a couple of choices:

1) Mention it to your observer and spend one of your drives hunting overtakes to practice
2) Get along to an AD-UK day ;)

Of course, it's worth checking that your observer has had instruction in overtaking (as overtaking whilst remaining entirely legal is particularly difficult ;)) before taking their advice :D

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Postby vonhosen » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:50 pm


For test purposes you needn't do overtakes to show that you know how to overtake.
What's important is that you recognise potential opportunities & show good judgement as to whether it's a safe legal overtaking opportunity or not.
You could turn down twenty overtakes (completing none) & whoever was assessing you be quite happy with the judgement you have displayed.
Safe legal opportunities are the exception rather than the rule.
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Postby IVORTHE DRIVER » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:06 pm


I follow people every day who have no idea how to even start an overtake let alone execute it safely so don't be too hard on yourself.

I personally have no problem with breaking the speed limit (slightly ) if I think it will be safer that way, but ideally I prefer not to, my technique, where possible, is to hang back, increasing vision and then begin to accelerate before the gap appears, thereby reducing my time in the danger zone and very often negating the need to go for a lower gear.

If you do need to overtake from closer/or in a lower gear you need to be aware of what your car will do in each gear, as it is no good finding out halfway through that you need to go up a gear with the risk of messing it up and leaving yourself in the s**t (very easy to do if it from 4th to 5th for example)

Being comfortable with your car does wonders for confidence.

If the problem is more to do with distance/speed assesment, thats a bit harder to sort out without proper help (ie not me)
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Postby fungus » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:07 pm


What does the Highway Code say about overtaking when approaching a junction?

I had a situation last week on the A49 in Shropshire.

I had been looking for an opportunity to overtake a slower car doing about 40-45mph when the road opened up and I had sufficient road ahead to carry out the overtake, but I noticed a blind junction to the right which would be about half way through the overtake, so I decided not to go for it,( I'd have been stuffed if a vehicle had emerged from the junction). This decision seemed to annoy the woman in the following car who overtook both of us at the next opportunity. At this point the road was of sufficient length for two cars to safely overtake the slower vehicle. I was able to overtake after the following vehicle had overtaken me, so I got my overtake in anyway.
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Postby IVORTHE DRIVER » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:12 pm


Never mind what the Highway code says, I would not go for an overtake in that situation unless I could be sure there was NOTHING in that side road.
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Postby jcochrane » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:13 pm


Probably the most difficult and dangerous manoeuvre in driving. Not helped by the bunching of traffic resulting from our low speed limits.

Some thoughts that have helped me and may help you.

Overtaking, on single carriageways, requires us to drive on the wrong side of the road. Therefore make sure it's right before doing it.

Position out, clear of the car to be overtaken, before commitment, so that you get a good view before the overtake and can then accelerate in a straight line, cuts down exposure time to danger.

Only overtake if you are confident that you can get back to your side of the road in half the distance you can see to be clear.

If in any doubt, don't.

It's never wrong not to overtake. (My favourite)
Last edited by jcochrane on Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fungus » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:23 pm


IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:Never mind what the Highway code says, I would not go for an overtake in that situation unless I could be sure there was NOTHING in that side road.


That's just the point. I didn't know if there was anything in that side road, it was blind, hence the decision not to overtake.
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Postby IVORTHE DRIVER » Mon Sep 26, 2011 10:28 pm


One other problem I came across the other day when behind a tractor,

Said tractor tanking along at a shade over 40mph which only left my minibus with 5mph to play with, this did not stop the plonker in the artic behind me leaning on his horn when I failed to overtake on a very short straight section, when I did overtake on the next, longer, safe section he actually followed me (at 50mph) and was halfway past the tractor when he realised that there was no room for both me and him to get past (ie i was not going to speed up for his benefit) and he was left with no choice but to stand on the brakes and barely made it back behind the tractor before the oncoming vehicles wiped him out.

Wonder if he learnt anything :!:
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Postby zadocbrown » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:16 am


IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:he realised that there was no room for both me and him to get past (ie i was not going to speed up for his benefit) and he was left with no choice but to stand on the brakes and barely made it back behind the tractor before the oncoming vehicles wiped him out.



How would you have felt if he had wiped out a family of 5 because you wouldn't make space for him? Almost certainly it would have been the innocent party who came off worst.

Is the speed limit that important? Or were you feeling particularly self-righteous on that occasion?

We all make mistakes, and we should be prepared to work around other people's when necessary, especially if a situation could turn lethal.
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Postby waremark » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:40 am


Overtaking judgements are extremely difficult, and getting it wrong is literally fatal; err on the side of caution.

Be cautious particularly about accelerating while still behind the target which you are intending to overtake. If he was about to stop, and braked suddenly, would you be able to stop behind him? The IAM way, as explained by JC, is to move out to the offside when safe for a better view without accelerating, and only then to commit to the overtake.

Consider how much speed differential you need for a safe overtake within a reasonable distance. You will probably need to accelerate to 15 to 20 mph more than the target vehicle. On an IAM test, you should not plan an overtake unless you expect to be able to complete it safely within the speed limit. That means that on a single carriageway you are not likely to attempt an overtake of any vehicle doing much more than 40.

You can practise your judgement of speed and distance on a dual carriageway, while using lane 2 to overtake slow traffic in lane 1. First match your speed to a goods vehicle in lane 1, then estimate how much distance you will need to complete the overtake and get safely back into lane 1. Then accelerate past and see whether you got it right. As an extension to this, look at opposite direction traffic, and try to estimate how far away a vehicle needs to be for you to be able to get safely past your target before meeting the opposite direction vehicle.

A more difficult to set up way to practise overtaking is to get a friend to drive slowly along a road, and to practise overtaking them.

By the way, I suggest you plan to complete your overtake in not more than one third of the distance you can see to be clear; one third for distance you will travel, one third for the vehicle towards you, and one third for safety.

The main secret to successful overtaking is to be ready for it when the opportunity opens up. Decide whether or not you are looking for an overtake. If you are, make sure you are in close contact with the target vehicle at any point on the road where you can expect the vision to open up, for example on the exit of a right hand bend. If you can see that it is safe to move out to the offside, do so, and take a final decision of whether or not to go from there.

You might like to watch an overtaking video by a police advanced instructor, who used to post here as Reg RULocal. He was in a powerful car, but claimed this was all within the speed limit. Watch the video, and read his comments on the linked Pistonheads thread:

http://www.youtube.com/user/RUREGLOCAL# ... vrhb1mDkYs
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Postby IVORTHE DRIVER » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:25 am


zadocbrown wrote:
How would you have felt if he had wiped out a family of 5 because you wouldn't make space for him? Almost certainly it would have been the innocent party who came off worst.

Is the speed limit that important? Or were you feeling particularly self-righteous on that occasion


I,m sorry but I do overtake for other peoples benefit, I overtake to aid my progress, the prat in the lorry followed me blindly into that overtake, the speed limit or for that matter feeling self-righteous does not come into it AT ALL.

No matter when or where you choose to overtake it is always YOUR responsibility to ensure YOU can do so safely, say my minibus had a tacho fitted, I would lose my job for speeding.

I had loads of time to complete my overtake (at probably 53/54 mph) being back on my side of the road before the oncoming vehicles appeared round the next bend, he had 40ft of metal completely on the wrong side of the road and suddenly thats my fault? I don't b****y think so :!:
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Postby waremark » Tue Sep 27, 2011 12:33 pm


IVORTHE DRIVER wrote:
zadocbrown wrote:I had loads of time to complete my overtake (at probably 53/54 mph) being back on my side of the road before the oncoming vehicles appeared round the next bend, he had 40ft of metal completely on the wrong side of the road and suddenly thats my fault? I don't b****y think so :!:

Who said anything about your fault? But if you can help someone else avoid a bad accident isn't that worth doing?
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Postby Slink_Pink » Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:40 pm


I agree with the general points raised above.

One thing my examiner said pre-test was that, with the appropriate safety caveats, you should always overtake on the first opportunity as you don't know when you'd get another. This is a point which would be considered under the general heading of progression.

In my test there were two opportunities which were not achievable within the speed limit. My examiner did mention that these were unfortunate but that I handled them well by holding back and looking for further opportunities. I think the point was that I had identified and assess them correctly.
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Postby Astraist » Tue Sep 27, 2011 2:38 pm


I agree with most of the points raised above. I once heard another advanced driving instructor say that "If there is a possibility not to overtake, don't." The subject matter of refusing to pass the national speed limit while overtaking is also important: Of course we don't have (and mostly, don't need) to violate the speed limit, but I believe that if it puts another driver at the risk of a head-on collision, I would not think twice about breaking the limit to prevent a collision.

Even if we are not moved by care towards the two other drivers that are at risk (including their passengers) we need to remember that, regardless of the subject of fault (which is purely juridical), a head-on collision is often powerfull enough to disludge one car on a third vehicle, quite possibly your own. In one case I know of, a truck's motor has been thrown onto a third car, killing it's occupants. Always do your best to help another driver to complete or abort his/her overtake safely.

Be cautious particularly about accelerating while still behind the target which you are intending to overtake. If he was about to stop, and braked suddenly, would you be able to stop behind him? The IAM way, as explained by JC, is to move out to the offside when safe for a better view without accelerating, and only then to commit to the overtake.


Interesting. I've learned to overtake much like what Ivor described: Hanging back, seeing the upportunity, accelerating forward in my own lane, passing to the next lane and completing the overtake. By hanging back we maintain the safe following gap from the traffic in front, keep our field of vision clear, allow the car in front/behind/oncoming to notice we are about to overtake and can use the space in our own lane to get up to speed without being in the dangerous opposite lane.

It is true that during that brief moment where we close up against the car in front, we open ourselves to risk, but since we have to ensure that the chance for an overtake is indeed safe, we need to make sure that nothing will cause the overtaken driver to act in such a dangerous way. Even if he does stop suddenly, we can still brake and than steer. Since both cars are still moving, and since we ready ourselves to overtake only when the off-side is clear, we should be able to use it as a clear escape route and than return to our lane.
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