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Postby vonhosen » Fri Feb 02, 2007 11:56 pm


Gareth wrote:
vonhosen wrote:Some people playing in car parks "do" get served Sec 59 notices.

OK, but in what circumstances can Section 59 notices be served?

I've made a brief search, then the first case I found was where two people were riding scrambler bikes in an area that had previously been designated a Site of Special Scientific Interest, (SSSI).

They were reported for driving licence and insurance offences, but I presume the Section 59 notice was served because of infringing an SSSI.

What rules would be infringed for which a Section 59 notice could be served for someone playing in a snowy car-park taking care not to endanger others?


Section 59 of the Police Reform Act 2002 refers to vehicles being used in a manner which causes alarm, distress or annoyance. Where a vehicle is being used in this way, or otherwise amounts to careless or inconsiderate driving, a constable in uniform will have powers to deal with it. A common example given is handbrake turns in a housing estate, but if it's a car park that qualifies as a public place under the road traffic act, skidding around will come into play also.

Sec 59 wrote:59(1) Where a constable in uniform has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle is being used on any occasion in a manner which-

(a) contravenes section 3 or 34 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (careless and inconsiderate driving and prohibition of off-road driving), and
(b) is causing, or is likely to cause, alarm, distress or annoyance to members of the public,

he shall have the powers set out in subsection (3).

59(2) A constable in uniform shall also have the powers set out in subsection (3) where he has reasonable grounds for believing that a motor vehicle has been used on any occasion in a manner falling within subsection (1).

59(3) Those powers are-

(a) the power, if the motor vehicle is moving, to order the person driving it to stop the vehicle;
(b) the power to seize and remove the motor vehicle;
(c) the power, for the purposes of exercising a power falling within paragraph (a) or (b), to enter any premises on which he has reasonable grounds for believing the motor vehicle to be;
(d) the power to use reasonable force, if necessary, in the exercise of any power conferred by any of paragraphs (a) to (c).

Failing to stop the vehicle as per (a) of this subsection is a summary offence contrary to section 59(6) of the Act.

59(4) A constable shall not seize a motor vehicle in the exercise of the powers conferred on him by this section unless-

(a) he has warned the person appearing to him to be the person whose use falls within subsection (1) that he will seize it, if that use continues or is repeated; and
(b) it appears to him that the use has continued or been repeated after the warning.


59(5) Subsection (4) does not require a warning to be given by a constable on any occasion on which he would otherwise have the power to seize a motor vehicle under this section if-

(a) the circumstances make it impracticable for him to give the warning;
(b) the constable has already on that occasion given a warning under that subsection in respect of any use of that motor vehicle or of another motor vehicle by that person or any other person;
(c) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that such a warning has been given on that occasion otherwise than by him; or
(d) the constable has reasonable grounds for believing that the person whose use of that motor vehicle on that occasion would justify the seizure is a person to whom a warning under that subsection has been given (whether or not by that constable or in respect of the same vehicle or the same or a similar use) on a previous occasion in the previous twelve months.

59(7) Subsection (3)(c) does not authorise entry into a private dwelling house.
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Postby PeteG » Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:25 pm


Cheers von, much appreciated.

Out of interest, if you get a s59 notice, do you have to declare it at job interviews/ police applications/ to your insurers? And, while we're at it, what about if your car does get seized for whatever reason?
"There's always another day, and I would rather miss a few than get one badly wrong." - TripleS, on overtaking.
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Postby vonhosen » Sat Feb 03, 2007 4:51 pm


PeteG wrote:Cheers von, much appreciated.

Out of interest, if you get a s59 notice, do you have to declare it at job interviews/ police applications/ to your insurers? And, while we're at it, what about if your car does get seized for whatever reason?


Under Sec 59 itself you are not being prosecuted, it relates to seizure of the vehicle.

The applicable offences are Sec 3 (careless/inconsiderate driving) or Sec 34 (Off road riding/driving) Road Traffic Act.
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Postby SammyTheSnake » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:20 am


vonhosen wrote:Sec 34 (Off road riding/driving) Road Traffic Act.


That sounds for all the world like an oxymoron to me :?

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Postby PeteG » Sun Feb 04, 2007 12:45 am


vonhosen wrote:Under Sec 59 itself you are not being prosecuted, it relates to seizure of the vehicle.

The applicable offences are Sec 3 (careless/inconsiderate driving) or Sec 34 (Off road riding/driving) Road Traffic Act.


Again, cheers von. Sorry if I seem a little dim at times. :)
"There's always another day, and I would rather miss a few than get one badly wrong." - TripleS, on overtaking.
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Postby Gareth » Sun Feb 04, 2007 8:49 am


PeteG wrote:Sorry if I seem a little dim at times. :)

The problem isn't that you seem a little dim, rather it's that we live in an extremely heavily regulated society, and almost all of us have no ideas about the rules. They say that ignorance of the law is no excuse, but everybody is ignorant about most of the rules that can be used to govern our existence.

I would vote for whichever party guaranteed to simplify laws and the other regulations by which we live, with the aim of making the rules easily understood by all (or even most) members of society.
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Postby 899cc » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:22 pm


I think icy/snowy roads are the best idea, although you do need to be careful. It can be hard to find icy carparks with enough empty space.

I wouldn't recommend doing it on wet grass. Apart from the fact that you will ruin the persons grass, it is very bumpy. I've driven in fields before, and even it is VERY bumpy. My car can loose grip at very low speeds even when it's dry. I would be worried about what damage bumps could do to the car, especially if the wheels hit bumps side ways. With a bit more speed you may even roll a car due to a hidden bump.
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Postby SammyTheSnake » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:20 pm


899cc wrote:It can be hard to find icy carparks with enough empty space.


Easier around here than icy roads. Don't forget that a car park is full of roads anyway, so any space provided by empty bays is additional to what you'll find on most roads anyway.

It was very kind of Ricoh & Tesco to club together and make a really large car park that's pretty much empty except when Coventry are playing at home, too :D I expect it's also more likely to be missed by the salt & gritters than the roads.

Cheers & God bless
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DSA A 2003/08/01 - first go
Zach 2003-2006 - 1995 Diversion 600
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Postby MGF » Sun Feb 04, 2007 7:24 pm


Not too many bumps here:-



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Postby PeteG » Mon Feb 05, 2007 2:10 am


I think the grumbling about "the youth of today" would put me off most, there. ;)
"There's always another day, and I would rather miss a few than get one badly wrong." - TripleS, on overtaking.
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Postby SammyTheSnake » Mon Feb 05, 2007 11:37 pm


PeteG wrote:I think the grumbling about "the youth of today" would put me off most, there. ;)


Speaking (as always) only for myself, I suspect the grumbling would be somewhat less at the forefront of my mind than the handcuffing and removal of liberty! :wink:

Cheers & God bless
Sam "SammyTheSnake" Penny
DSA A 2003/08/01 - first go
Zach 2003-2006 - 1995 Diversion 600
DSA B 2007/03/05 - second go
Ninny 2007-2008 - Focus TDDI
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Postby PeteG » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:58 pm


They'd never get to you to handcuff you, past the rows of people offering them cups of tea and apple-scrumping anecdotes...
"There's always another day, and I would rather miss a few than get one badly wrong." - TripleS, on overtaking.
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Postby PeteG » Wed Feb 07, 2007 5:14 am


Well, first snow seen up here in Teesside today. Apart from the snowball fighting (which will probably get outlawed in case we get wet or graze our knees), I've been out on the roads a bit on my way home.
Firstly, I was very impressed with how clear the main roads, and the bus routes I drive along, were. Then I came out of work, and found our work car park covered in an inch of snow - so while the gates were still open, I had a quick go flicking the car around a bit.
Sadly, the security men would quite happily have locked me in once the rest of the staff had left, so that put an end to that. So, my search for a suitable snowy car park began... and I found none. The only car parks in reasonable driving distance were closed off (Boo! They should open up when the "cruisers" have gone to bed amongst their Max Power and Fast Car posters), gritted (can't have people falling over now, can we), guarded with CCTV and jobsworths, or too close to houses for me to be happy.
I dusted off my thinking cap that I'd last used in my physics GCSE (and changed the batteries)... and came to a blank. I need somewhere quite spacious, since I don't really want to hit anything...

Bringing me back to an earlier post - if the police got a report that I was doing my best Stiq Blomquist impression (the driving, not a bad Swedish accent), but then came down and found me sitting eating a bag of Doritos and reading the paper, would they be able to act? Or would it be a "we know what you were up to, behave yourself" deal?
And with Section 59, AIUI they warn you then take your car - does this take the form of a warning of s3 too, or is it a charge for s3 first?
"There's always another day, and I would rather miss a few than get one badly wrong." - TripleS, on overtaking.
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