Chris Gilbert response to J. Whitmore article - Pull Push

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Do you agree with Chris Gilbert or Sir John Whitmore on Pull Push Steering Technique?

I agree with Chris
18
86%
I agree with Sir John
3
14%
 
Total votes : 21

Postby waremark » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:14 am


vonhosen wrote:I don't think JW has it in for Pull/push per se. It's that he doesn't agree that it should be the de facto standard & that forcing people to do it is damaging to the learning process. I get the impression he is for natural steering & if people struggle with steering in any particular aspect of their driving, then let them choose a way to tweek their steering technique in order to overcome their difficulties in that particular area.

My experience of Sir John, based on sitting in a car with him, differs. For all that he professes to want people to steer naturally, actually what he means by that is that he wants them to steer his way. He is just as dogmatic in favouring rotational steering as Chris Gilbert and John Lyon are in favouring P/P. (By the way, apart from the topic of steering JW was very helpful).

I am fully with Mr C-W. I choose a non-dogmatic path, which recognises that a good result can be achieved in a number of different ways, and I personally use different techniques in different situations.

I do have a major reservation about teaching P/P to learners, as most ADI's seem to. I think they are teaching a system which nearly all their pupils abandon shortly after passing. The consequence is that many drivers steer in fashions which nobody would choose to teach. Does this cause accidents? I don't know, but I think maybe it does contribute to loss of control accidents. I wonder whether pupils taught fixed-grip/rotational would be any more likely to put into practice what they had been taught, and whether that would result in a net improvement in the quality of steering and thus the accident rate??
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Postby vonhosen » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:27 am


waremark wrote:I am fully with Mr C-W. I choose a non-dogmatic path, which recognises that a good result can be achieved in a number of different ways, and I personally use different techniques in different situations.


Me too. :mrgreen:
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Postby jcochrane » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:20 am


Von, sorry I did not get back to you last night but I had to get some sleep before getting up for work at 04:00 this morning. :x However, I share waremark's views and would have expressed the same in response to your points.
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:31 am


Small shuffly movements seem to be what everybody does when they've been told pull-push is the way, but not shown how to do it. I spend time regularly with a group of young people who are being taught traditional Roadcraft driving and my constant mantra is "big bites of steering" :)

They also steer too much, thus compounding the problem for themselves. As an illustration, I make them negotiate one of their pseudo-roundabouts (which are made of cones, but very small and tight) with one hand at the top of the steering wheel. With very few exceptions, they can easily do this. Then we go back to the two handed method and concentrate on just enough steering input to do the job - in bigger handfuls.
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Postby Horse » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:56 am


waremark wrote: I do have a major reservation about teaching P/P to learners, as most ADI's seem to. I think they are teaching a system which nearly all their pupils abandon shortly after passing. The consequence is that many drivers steer in fashions which nobody would choose to teach. Does this cause accidents? I don't know, but I think maybe it does contribute to loss of control accidents. I wonder whether pupils taught fixed-grip/rotational would be any more likely to put into practice what they had been taught, and whether that would result in a net improvement in the quality of steering and thus the accident rate??


And there's a couple of key points!

1. Surely the important point is to prevent situations developing that require good steering?

That requires emphasis on mental rather than physical skills.

2. Is there any point in teaching & testing on a 'skill' which the driver will instantly abandon?

Isn't it better to allow the trainee to develop a method which allows comfortable control and that they'll want to continue using? And that's 'develop with questioning from the instructor/coach' to ensure that whichever method they use still ensures adequate* control.

* 'Adequate' because there's no proof that high-level control skill = safer driver
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Postby Porker » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:00 am


I suspect that a good part of the reason that PP is abandoned post-test is that it's:

i) Slavishly taught for the smallest of steering movements, when fixed input would be more appropriate for these smaller steering requirements; and,

ii) Difficult to do effectively with the seat position that many drivers adopt and which doesn't seem to be remarked upon during their pre- and post-test training.

If a sensible combination of PP and FI were taught, I can't think of any great reasons for abandoning this approach unless you get ii) wrong.

Many - actually most - of the ADIs, IAM and RoADAR (including many Gold) folks who approach me for coaching are sitting too far back from the wheel to make PP and FI effective. When you're too far from the wheel, a straight-arm approach which lends itself to rotational steering possibly feels more natural and is more easily achieved.

So there you have it - using PP for small inputs combined with poor seat position are the twin issues, in my view at least.

The voting options need to include a middle ground option for those who are adherents of neither the Chris nor John schools of thought.

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Postby Angus » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:24 am


Before I was introduced to "advanced" driving, I have no idea how I used to turn the wheel. And bearing in mind the number of mishaps, perhaps that's just as well.

But then I was introduced to pull-push, and in the early days my hands shuffled around the wheel like a demented ferret.

These days, with the exception of junctions, roundabouts and manoeuvring, most of my steering is rotational as that is sufficient in a modern car with a little over 2 turns lock to lock.

However, driving a 7.5 tonne horsebox, with a near horizontal steering wheel, and what seems 5 or 6 turns lock to lock, virtually all my steering is pull-push.

As with the others here, we have different tools available, and we use the one that we consider is most suited to the task.

So they both make valid points, but neither is the only tool for us to use. Just think of one as a hammer, and the other as a screwdriver :D
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Postby vonhosen » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:37 am


Angus wrote:However, driving a 7.5 tonne horsebox, with a near horizontal steering wheel, and what seems 5 or 6 turns lock to lock, virtually all my steering is pull-push.


Really ?

When I drive such vehicles (& bigger) I hardly do any pull/push as espoused by roadcraft.
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Postby waremark » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:09 am


vonhosen wrote:
Angus wrote:However, driving a 7.5 tonne horsebox, with a near horizontal steering wheel, and what seems 5 or 6 turns lock to lock, virtually all my steering is pull-push.


Really ?

When I drive such vehicles (& bigger) I hardly do any pull/push as espoused by roadcraft.

I was using a Land Rover Defender for a week in Alps in January - with lots of hairpins. I was comparing PP and rotational, and really thought it was 6 of one and half a dozen of the other.

I don't quite go with the hammer and screwdriver analogy: a hammer and a screwdriver do different jobs, with steering we have several different tools which can all be used for the same job.
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Postby GJD » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:58 pm


StressedDave wrote:For me the act of moving the hand to steer effectively presupposes, assuming a desire to be at 2:45 mid bend, that you know how much steering you will actually need for the bend.


Like most it seems, my preference is not rigidly one extreme or the other. But I find that presuppoing that I know how much steering I will actually need gets me unstuck sometimes with fixed input. I normally hold the wheel at around quarter to three. I occasionaly find after I've decided on fixed input for a particular bend, that, say 150 degrees of rotation wasn't quite enough, and the transition from fixed input to something else at that point isn't as beautiful as I'd like. In fact, I find the transition from fixed input to something else after much more than 90 degrees (starting from quarter to three) is less than ideal, which probably explains why I stubbornly stick wth the fixed hand position as far as I do.

Obviously only happens on tighter bends (or manoeuvring) and so at lower speeds, but the problem rears its head every so often and would probably fail the "use whatever technique you want as long as it's smooth and controlled" test.

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Postby waremark » Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:06 am


GJD wrote:I find that presuppoing that I know how much steering I will actually need gets me unstuck sometimes with fixed input. I normally hold the wheel at around quarter to three. I occasionaly find after I've decided on fixed input for a particular bend, that, say 150 degrees of rotation wasn't quite enough, and the transition from fixed input to something else at that point isn't as beautiful as I'd like.

It is awkward to transition from fixed grip to pull push. It is much easier to transition from fixed grip to rotational - so I reckon that people who want to use PP should practice the transition to rotational in case they find they need more steering than they expected.
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Postby MGF » Thu Feb 18, 2010 4:02 am


I tend to start with fixed grip at 9 - 15 and as one hand nears 12 o'clock the other hand moves up to the opposite side of the higher hand. I don't seem to find this too difficult but I may be doing it wrong. I have the view that starting the steering input with the steering hand past 12 o'clock is ok but steering past 12 o'clock isnt because I am least able to deal with the need to add more lock. In this situation I resort to rotational. Whether that is a bad or a good thing I am not sure but it doesn't feel right. Maybe that is just me worrying about what it looks like rather than the smoothness. I think I am going to have a go at steering with the intention of moving to rotational if need be and see if that feels any better.
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