IAM AGM

[firstmk1]

Dave, have you tried out some of the alternative techniques that have been shown to you?

[TripleS]

Dave, have you tried out some of the alternative techniques that have been shown to you?

Yes, I think it is fair to say I have, but it has been in the form of minor additions or adjustments to what I was already doing, rather than major changes.

I'm very reluctant to try making substantial changes at this stage, for fear of adverse effects on what I'm already comfortable with. Whether or not I should be comfortable with what I'm already doing is a matter of opinion.

If I prove unable to make a success of the new stuff, and then find I've fouled up what I already had, I would think I'd made a mistake.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Beg pardon, Dave, but once again I don't see what the problem is here, and again it might be my fault, but I don't.

If I corner smoothly and steadily, with steering input applied early and gently, and I take a line that allows room for a bit of adjustment, and all this is placing low demands on the car, so that I have something decent in reserve for unexpected problems, why should this be felt to be appreciably lacking?

Firstly, and I quite accept that you may have been 'driving down' on the occasion we drove together (although that begs another question: 'why? I mean for <insert deity of choice>'s sake weren't you showing your very best behind the wheel of a car when you had free coaching and nice driving roads'), your cornering method was absolutely nothing like that. Everything was late, hurried and terribly imprecise - again, I accept that you're evolving and what I might receive on the next occasion might be something entirely different.

Yes, you had plenty in reserve (we're back to the speed of delivery issue here) but personally I like to see focus in driving and there was no evidence of that in your drive. But ask yourself this, if you suddenly came across one of those microclimates/diesel spills, what would happen?

Now I'm perfectly happy with the fact that we will never agree on this, but I'm of the group that thinks there should be only one driving style. By that I don't mean that there is only one pace of driving (I'm with von here), but that the same thought processes are in place at all times so that should the unthinkable happen, you're ready to deal with it.

Now, I'd love to see the TripleS that can cover ground at a high average speed in perfect control but I doubt he really exists, save as a figment of your imagination. To my mind, anyone's level of driving skill and ability is not measured by the heights that they can achieve but by the baseline at which they drive day-in, day-out.

Dave - I don't think that is a completely fair portrayal of the current situation, and it certainly is not the tone you adopted on the day we drove together. Yes, you did make some helpful suggestions, and I appreciated those, and I think they have been of benefit, so thanks for that, at least.

It now looks as if you object to having things questioned, and if we can not feel free to do that, further discussion seems unlikely to help anybody. My description of my current approach to cornering (which you've quoted above) asks why that should be felt to be appreciably lacking, but I still do not know the answer. Anyhow that doesn't matter, it works perfectly well so I see no reason to change it. If I ever find out what's really wrong with it, I will try to do things differently.

I'm sorry we've ended on this note, but obviously I ought to leave this alone now.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Just as an afterthought, a question for James A:

Do you feel able to tell us what it was about that police drive that seems to have repelled you, rather than inspiring you to approach that standard as far as possible?

I may not have worded that very well, but I expect you will know what I mean.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[vonhosen]

Just as an afterthought, a question for James A:

Do you feel able to tell us what it was about that police drive that seems to have repelled you, rather than inspiring you to approach that standard as far as possible?

I may not have worded that very well, but I expect you will know what I mean.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I'd imagine it's that whilst he regarded it as safe & under control, he wouldn't feel comfortable operating to the margins being displayed for such a period of time. Margins that perhaps he doesn't consider necessary or appropriate in everyday driving.

[Porker]

Dave (Triple)

I don't think Dave has any problem with ideas being questioned.

But I do think you're missing a key point. We don't adopt practices simply because they're another way of doing something. We do things because they give us a better chance of getting to the end of the trip in one piece and, in some cases, making the trip itself quicker.

That being the case, much (possibly everything) that we do can be done in other ways, but the alternative approach will have i) disadvantages if a given situation arises or ii) it has an in-built disadvantage. an example being poor positioning in corners. Another obvious example is not driving too close to parked vehicles. You might get away with it for a lifetime, or you might not, but we leave a decent gap because it reduces a small risk* yet further.

* Albeit one with potentially big consequences.

So the argument that using an alternative approach is equally valid because it hasn't caught you out yet doesn't really hold water. There's always an alternative approach - but if it had advantages, don't you think we'd be using it? There are of course a few exceptions to this general rule, where it's not clear cut but generally it holds true.

If you want to drive in a better fashion then at some point you're going to have to ackowledge that.

You could improve your driving if you wanted to, but you won't if all you're interested in is defending your current approach.

regards
P.

[waremark]

Firstly, your cornering method was absolutely nothing like that.....

Well, I think this sort of feedback should be kept for a 1 to 1 debrief. I understand that SSS has brought it on himself. However, giving a debrief about an individual's driving at one of our drive days in open forum will hardly encourage others to come along and drive with us. We are generally a helpful and encouraging lot - really. I think we should explicitly agree not to do it in future.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

A nice olive branch, Dave. Perhaps we should all agree we've exhausted the topic now.

[Porker]

Agreed - I think we've done this topic to conclusion.

P.

[JamesAllport]

I don't want to prolong a really interesting discussion that has run its course, but for the sake of politeness I just ought to answer Dave's direct question by saying that (as you might expect) Von has it spot on.

James

[TripleS]

Just as an afterthought, a question for James A:

Do you feel able to tell us what it was about that police drive that seems to have repelled you, rather than inspiring you to approach that standard as far as possible?

I may not have worded that very well, but I expect you will know what I mean.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I'd imagine it's that whilst he regarded it as safe & under control, he wouldn't feel comfortable operating to the margins being displayed for such a period of time. Margins that perhaps he doesn't consider necessary or appropriate in everyday driving.

Many thanks for that, Von.

Perhaps it's a matter of the intensity of concentration required - sustained concentration moreover - along with the more precise judgements needed for maximum safe progress, but I don't know. It was merely something that interested me.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Red Herring]

I can't believe I missed the boat on this discussion....I saw the thread title and switched over

I know it's all been said now but can i just add that in my view the most important attribute of any advanced driver is the ability to be flexible with their driving plans and the more options they have available the better that selection will be. Yes various organizations have their views on BGOL/Push pull ect ect... and an advanced driver should be aware of their pros and cons, however when faced with a particular situation they should use whichever "system" best serves their purpose. The most important factor is that the driver is in control at all times. By that I mean not just in control of the vehicle, that is a given, but also in control of the developing situation so that nothing comes as a surprise and nothing is unplanned for. All this talk of "you must do this or you mustn't do that" just encourages the mind set that advanced driving is about following rules, it isn't. It's about control.

[TripleS]

Many thanks to everybody for trying to understand what I've been attempting to explain, and to Dave T for his olive branch, because I feel I owe him one too - an olive branch, that is!

As I said yesterday, I won't pursue this further at this time. I'll keep my doubts to myself and stick with what I feel happy with, for the time being.

That has to be my decision anyhow, because it'll be my responsibility if anything goes wrong. If/when I end up in the hedge bottom after trying something 'advanced' it won't help for me to say, "Well this is how the Stressed one said I should be doing it."

Thanks again, everyone.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[martine]

All this talk of "you must do this or you mustn't do that" just encourages the mind set that advanced driving is about following rules, it isn't. It's about control.

I agree but isn't the IAM/ROSPA 'guidance' aimed at 'novice' advanced drivers (if you see what I mean)? The sign of a true genius at anything is
they know how and when to bend the rules to great effect.

[Red Herring]

Agreed, and it's fair to say that until you have understood and applied the recommendations of the various organizations then you are not in a position to add them to your list of options......