ADUK Archive

Nigel wrote:You could quite reasonably percive a road to be a 40 mph limit for example

How do you perceive a road to be 40 (& not 30 or 50) in the absence of any signage ?

vonhosen wrote:

Nigel wrote:You could quite reasonably percive a road to be a 40 mph limit for example

How do you perceive a road to be 40 (& not 30 or 50) in the absence of any signage ?

I assume you're playing devil's advocate here ... anyway I'd say drivers perceive appropriate speed for any situation by the concentration of lateral hazards, then would assume a speed limit roughly in line with those perceptions averaged over the stretch in question.

It's not unreasonable to expect 30 mph limits where people are likely to walking quite close to the road. Where roads are a little bit wider, and footpaths are wide and/or set back from roads, a 40 mph limit might be expected. Apart from the b******s of rural 50 mph limits, then a reasonable driver might expect that limit to apply where there is a high volume of traffic with protection such as railings to keep pedestrians separated from the road, or perhaps urban dual carriageways.

Where this falls down, as is now so often the case, is where speed limits have been lowered below that expected by a reasonable driver. Compounded by poor and/or obscured signage.

Gareth wrote:

vonhosen wrote:

Nigel wrote:You could quite reasonably percive a road to be a 40 mph limit for example

How do you perceive a road to be 40 (& not 30 or 50) in the absence of any signage ?

I assume you're playing devil's advocate here ... anyway I'd say drivers perceive appropriate speed for any situation by the concentration of lateral hazards, then would assume a speed limit roughly in line with those perceptions averaged over the stretch in question.

It's not unreasonable to expect 30 mph limits where people are likely to walking quite close to the road. Where roads are a little bit wider, and footpaths are wide and/or set back from roads, a 40 mph limit might be expected. Apart from the b******s of rural 50 mph limits, then a reasonable driver might expect that limit to apply where there is a high volume of traffic with protection such as railings to keep pedestrians separated from the road, or perhaps urban dual carriageways.

Where this falls down, as is now so often the case, is where speed limits have been lowered below that expected by a reasonable driver. Compounded by poor and/or obscured signage.

But the limit itself may not be set with regard to the favourable time & circumstances that you are observing it. By and large the limits are not variable either.
You can only therefore know what the limit is by observing the streetlamps, signage, or lack of (etc) & treat accordingly, rather than saying to yourself "well I'd say a setting of 40 would be appropriate here".

But Von, we all make judgements all the time.

I'd suggest I'm quite capable ( as are most other people I know) of judging what is appropriate at the time I'm driving along a stretch of road.

It used to be easy, no street lamps, no houses, no pathways...its nsl, one less thing to worry about, now I can look where I'm going, its a shame, but not anymore, time & time & time again I see limits that are unreasonably low.

Its pointless listing examples as were all front differant areas, but you must see this trend in your neck of the woods.

I have to say that despite our responsibility to know the speed limit it has become more difficult over the years.

I believe speed traps should give motorists every chance of getting their speed right. Surely the point of a speed trap is to detect those who willfully speed or are so careless they are unaware.

Obscuring a repeater is unhelpful even if technically acceptable.

MGF wrote:I believe speed traps should give motorists every chance of getting their speed right. Surely the point of a speed trap is to detect those who willfully speed or are so careless they are unaware.

Obscuring a repeater is unhelpful even if technically acceptable.

Well I wouldn't say the point of the speed trap is to give motorists every chance of getting their speed right, I'd say it's the speed limit that should be doing that.

If the sign is obscured then it is neither helpful OR acceptable.

Nigel wrote:But Von, we all make judgements all the time.

I'd suggest I'm quite capable ( as are most other people I know) of judging what is appropriate at the time I'm driving along a stretch of road.

I'm sure you are, but I'd also imagine most drivers think they are capable of choosing & driving at appropriate speed.

That doesn't change the fact that we do have set limits & we have to look at what the limit is, (from the things earlier mentioned) then choose an appropriate speed within those defined parameters.

I think you like to play devils advocate with me Von.

You know as well as I do that the authorities enforce more and inform less than they used to ( and by authorities I don't mean police).

If you think that the great majority are capable of ascertaining a 30mph speed limit by the presence of street lamps then I think that you are massively overestimating their capabilities and/or knowledge.

They read roadsigns, sometimes, then they either choose to obey them or normally ignore them and go at the speed that they feel most comfortable with at the time be it higher or lower than the limit.

hardboiled wrote:If you think that the great majority are capable of ascertaining a 30mph speed limit by the presence of street lamps then I think that you are massively overestimating their capabilities and/or knowledge.

They read roadsigns, sometimes, then they either choose to obey them or normally ignore them and go at the speed that they feel most comfortable with at the time be it higher or lower than the limit.

The things you are talking about must be considered simple knowledge & tasks which all careful competent drivers should be able to do.

Where they choose to ignore or simply fall short of the standard expected through ignorance of the limit, they leave themselves open to & should not be surprised if the receive sanction.

vonhosen wrote:Well I wouldn't say the point of the speed trap is to give motorists every chance of getting their speed right, I'd say it's the speed limit that should be doing that.

If the sign is obscured then it is neither helpful OR acceptable.

To rephrase what I said; the speed trap should only be placed where a motorist has been given every chance of getting their speed right. In other words there is no excuse. If it so important for motorists not to speed at that particular point then it should be clear this is the case. (Unless the purpose of the speed trap is to act as a general deterrant although I thought we were moving away from that).

Is there a difference with obscuring a repeater and a normal speed limit sign?

I would have thought that obscuring a repeater isn't fatal to a charge of speeding if the offence took place prior to passing the repeater as it is only repeating what the limit is. If you see what I mean?

As far as I can tell repeaters are tricksy little things and failure to erect or maintain isn't automatically fatal (not least as there is no prescribed maximum spacing), but will be down to a court to decide whether that meant that "inadequate guidance" was provided to the motorist, where I think "inadequate" means less than normally required.

There are many roads around here that flick between 30/40 regularly - sometimes within half mile. Nothing obvious to indicate why; no difference in the quantity of housing, schools, pavements etc.

The signs are just on the exit from a roundabout often - obscured on your entrance/approach to the roundabout and when you're exiting they're above your head and not the easiest to see.

I sometimes find myself doing 30 hoping to see a repeater at some point with a queue of traffic behind me (as they mostly do 50 regardless of the 30/40).

Add to that the number of NSL's which are now 50 limits (with no signage to say "new speed limit", just small 50 signs) and it can be hard knowing what speed limit you are in.

dreamer wrote:There are many roads around here that flick between 30/40 regularly - sometimes within half mile. Nothing obvious to indicate why; no difference in the quantity of housing, schools, pavements etc.

The signs are just on the exit from a roundabout often - obscured on your entrance/approach to the roundabout and when you're exiting they're above your head and not the easiest to see.

I sometimes find myself doing 30 hoping to see a repeater at some point with a queue of traffic behind me (as they mostly do 50 regardless of the 30/40).

Add to that the number of NSL's which are now 50 limits (with no signage to say "new speed limit", just small 50 signs) and it can be hard knowing what speed limit you are in.

I'm with you all the way dreamer.

Add to this a high percentage of my total driving in areas I'm not familiar with....and you have an unreasonable amount of my driving effort spent trying to stay legal, looking for every single clue as to what the speed limit "may" be.

Scamera partnerships ?...scrap the lot, lets get back to promoting safer driving.

Nigel wrote:

dreamer wrote:There are many roads around here that flick between 30/40 regularly - sometimes within half mile. Nothing obvious to indicate why; no difference in the quantity of housing, schools, pavements etc.

The signs are just on the exit from a roundabout often - obscured on your entrance/approach to the roundabout and when you're exiting they're above your head and not the easiest to see.

I sometimes find myself doing 30 hoping to see a repeater at some point with a queue of traffic behind me (as they mostly do 50 regardless of the 30/40).

Add to that the number of NSL's which are now 50 limits (with no signage to say "new speed limit", just small 50 signs) and it can be hard knowing what speed limit you are in.

I'm with you all the way dreamer.

Add to this a high percentage of my total driving in areas I'm not familiar with....and you have an unreasonable amount of my driving effort spent trying to stay legal, looking for every single clue as to what the speed limit "may" be.

Scamera partnerships ?...scrap the lot, lets get back to promoting safer driving.

I am with you on that. Even the A303 changes speed limit so many times it hard to track as I found out on Saturday.

I think I drove past 4 Gatso cameras and two people by the side of the road with hairdryers. (possible I racked up another 3 points on the way home)

I am beginning to get sick of this s**t. I could have gone from clean to ban in under one day!?!

Jay