Driving standards?

[Big Err]

I think it's happening because of the generally heightened sense of urgency felt by most people, allied to what often looks like unnecessary delays to progress.

Often a problem with some drivers because they only see their own side of a story. Jumping a red light prevents their delay, but can lead to delaying others.

We often see traffic held up in all directions seemingly for no reason, unless this arises from the combination of pedestrian crossing facilites with traffic lights. I'm all in favour of making provisions for aiding pedestrians in their safe crossing of roads, but I wonder if there are better ways of doing this.

The other options? Overbridges and Underpasses? The cost, space, planning requirements and desire line issues often make these options impratical and not economically viable. Roundabouts take up a lot of space, and are generally not cycle or pedestrian friendly options either.

However it happens it does appear to be causing more delay and congestion, especially in Scarborough, where they are embarking on schemes to install several more sets of traffic lights, as if the ones already in place haven't damaged the traffic flow sufficiently.

Chicken and Egg? Without some forms of traffic controls the town could grind to a halt?

Driving into the town centre without the need to stop is great until you're sitting on a side road wanting to join, or are a pedestrian wanting to cross. Again the individual driver needs to think a little more about the others who have to share the road space.


Implement traffic signals and queues will form, but it gives the traffic at minor roads at junctions an opportunity to merge and can accomodate cyclist/pedestrian movements.

I generally try to avoid taking the car into town centres and make use of rail/park and ride/cycling/walking to avoid the congestion. My love of driving doesn't include sitting in long queues.

[OILY PAWS]

Again the individual driver needs to think a little more about the others who have to share the road space.


.

This is very true, I think a great amount of the jams and congestion are caused by poor positioning at junctions, either turning into or emerging from, which stilfles/ stops the traffic flow, parents during school runs who feel it's their god-given right to stop wherever they like in order to give their little ones the least distance to walk to the school...........or is that for their benefit.

[TripleS]

However it happens it does appear to be causing more delay and congestion, especially in Scarborough, where they are embarking on schemes to install several more sets of traffic lights, as if the ones already in place haven't damaged the traffic flow sufficiently.

Chicken and Egg? Without some forms of traffic controls the town could grind to a halt?

Driving into the town centre without the need to stop is great until you're sitting on a side road wanting to join, or are a pedestrian wanting to cross. Again the individual driver needs to think a little more about the others who have to share the road space.

Implement traffic signals and queues will form, but it gives the traffic at minor roads at junctions an opportunity to merge and can accomodate cyclist/pedestrian movements.

The way they're doing things in Scarborough the traffic is grinding to a halt somewhat earlier than it would otherwise IMHO.

I don't think you're giving drivers sufficient credit for what they're already doing in terms of sorting things out together. Things would work better if we had more encouragement along those lines, and less of the 'Traffic Management' mentality.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Big Err]

I don't think you're giving drivers sufficient credit for what they're already doing in terms of sorting things out together. Things would work better if we had more encouragement along those lines, and less of the 'Traffic Management' mentality.

More chickens and eggs I'm afraid Dave. If things aren't broke they don't normally get fixed.

The developers of Traffic Management schemes have to look at all road users, all movements, current flow, expected flows, capacity issues, environmental issues, take into account social, business, political and economic issues. For schemes involving traffic signal control there is normally a lot of junction modelling carried out to calculate light staging and phasing. On the whole a very lengthy and often expensive process before a sod is cut out of the ground.


The introduction of certain traffic management measures may worsen certain situations. But when you consider how tight roads authorities are for money, it's unlikely they willl embark on what sounds like an expensive scheme unless there's good reason.

[Renny]

I wonder if part of the problem is that modern cars in general are a lot safer with loads of electronic aids to try and keep you out of trouble and then if you do manage to defeat them, you have crumple zones, airbags, etc so the chances of walking away are much higher. Cars are also much more comfortable and more isolated from the outside world too with plenty more distractions to divert attention. I think all this adds up to mask the perceived danger of driving and risks involved.

All the indications I see from new drivers are that the DSA test is actually becoming much more comprehensive (including basic vehicle roadworthiness checks!) and harder to pass than ever it used to be, so I'm not sure competency is suffering.

Chris

I think this lack of risk perception and modern behaviour in general leads to new drivers developing driving standards and styles that are hazardous, if not dangerous, to themselves and others. Modern cars are too easy to drive and can acheive performance levels far in excess of what the newly qualified driver is capable of dealing with. They do not experience the limits of control at low enough speeds to give them time to gain experience of how to react appropriately. They do not know how to recognise a reduction of grip or control at a speed when they can do something about it. When it does go wrong it happens at high speed with a lot of kinetic energy, usualy resulting in a total loss of control.

An illustration of this is when it snows. Many new drivers have not got the experience in dealing with low grip situations and cannot control the vehicle, with predicatable (not to them) results. The experienced driver knows to moderate inputs and can still make progress.

The higher performance limits of modern vehicles have the capability seriously task the average experienced driver, never mind the inexperienced.

[TripleS]

I don't think you're giving drivers sufficient credit for what they're already doing in terms of sorting things out together. Things would work better if we had more encouragement along those lines, and less of the 'Traffic Management' mentality.

More chickens and eggs I'm afraid Dave. If things aren't broke they don't normally get fixed.

The developers of Traffic Management schemes have to look at all road users, all movements, current flow, expected flows, capacity issues, environmental issues, take into account social, business, political and economic issues.

.... and of course allow some scope for the 'must be seen to be doing something' mentality.

OK I've no doubt some of these schemes are sensibly considered and evolved, but some of them remain questionable in my view - and I'm not only concerned with the interests of what some may describe as selfish drivers.

Scarborough Borough Council appears to have a fixation with a small number of favourite junctions, which it re-arranges periodically at considerable cost until it decides that also is unsatisfactory and embarks on the next set of alterations.

If these blighters were spending their own money on this nonsense they might not be so ready to chuck it about quite so freely.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[jmaccyd]

I blame broader trends in society in general. As anti-social behaviour increases amongt the community at large that naturally progresses when these elements get behind the wheel of a car. A lack of respect for each other as citizens and the laws of the land are combined with the knowledge that you will get away with illegal acts

[vonhosen]

Anybody ever see the Disney cartoon "Motor mania" ?

[Porker]

Is that the one where the nice chap gets into a car, whereupon he grows horns and a bad attitude?

I think I saw it about 30 odd years ago.

P.

[vonhosen]

Is that the one where the nice chap gets into a car, whereupon he grows horns and a bad attitude?

I think I saw it about 30 odd years ago.

P.

Mild mannered 'Mr Walker' undergoes a transformation behind the wheel becoming 'Mr Wheeler' & then as soon as he steps from the car he reverts.

[Porker]

That's the one.

P.

[Søren]

Fair point. An interesting debate.

I know what I think. I tend to be shocked every day now, more so on the bike...

TA!, I only posted it from my personal observations of late regarding a lot of Drivers total disregard of the rules of the Road, my own opinion is that the standards are so low because they can get away with it!, not many Trafpol around nowadays after all are there?

In truth your chances of getting caught by trafpol have never been very high, so whilst the perception may be that you're likely to get away with it now, the reality is that you were always likely to.

I wouldn't disagree with this, but the threat was always there in the mind of most, and it is one of the factors that would cause drivers to think again about taking a particular course of action. Pre-camera days, there used to be a regular 30-35,000 each year who would be banned by totting up, and this hasn't increased significantly, despite many more prosecutions.

If there were no trafpol, I wonder how that would affect driving behaviour?

The fact is that our numbers have been reduced dramatically in recent years, and our roles have altered. I've been involved in high profile serious crime frustration operations for the last little while, yet this type of work is now being undertaken by trafpol who are also required to respond reactively to traffic incidents as they arise. This significant reduction in our proactive capabilities will gradually filter through to some drivers' attitudes.

[ROG]

With modern technology and less Trefpol, can we not have a really good CCTV system ? - one person sitting at a desk could see a darn sight more viewing multiple cameras than one person in a car.

[daz6215]

I think IMHO that most of today's bad driving stems from the over use of traffic calming, lights, bus lanes, bumps, chicanes, cameras, etc etc the list goes on , driving is becoming increasingly more and more stressful due to these added measures which in many cases are not warranted being there at all. These things all increase large volumes of traffic building in one place instead of encouraging free flowing traffic, adding pressure to people under time restraints etc and causing them to drive faster and become more impatient as a result, it also does not help with the environmental issue either due to all the start and stopping and long periods of waiting which all burn more fuel that would have otherwise been needed, not to mention the cost on the economy due to people arriving late at work ,deliveries arriving late and the list goes on, IMO i think all these measure should be scrapped and an emphasis on driver education beyond the L test is what is required.
ADI
Rospa Gold
LGV 1

[TripleS]

I think IMHO that most of today's bad driving stems from the over use of traffic calming, lights, bus lanes, bumps, chicanes, cameras, etc etc the list goes on , driving is becoming increasingly more and more stressful due to these added measures which in many cases are not warranted being there at all. These things all increase large volumes of traffic building in one place instead of encouraging free flowing traffic, adding pressure to people under time restraints etc and causing them to drive faster and become more impatient as a result, it also does not help with the environmental issue either due to all the start and stopping and long periods of waiting which all burn more fuel that would have otherwise been needed, not to mention the cost on the economy due to people arriving late at work ,deliveries arriving late and the list goes on, IMO i think all these measure should be scrapped and an emphasis on driver education beyond the L test is what is required.
ADI
Rospa Gold
LGV 1

I feel a large measure of agreement with that. Well said.

Best wishes all,
Dave.