ADUK Archive

zadocbrown wrote:I think I read about a case involving a filling station where it was found that the driver didn't necessarily have to be actualy inside the vehicle to be 'in attendance'. Anyone else remember that? (quite some time ago)

My recollection is that there is no legal requirement to be in the car but you must be with it to be in attendance.



Donaldson LJ in QBD of High Court 1980; case of Bulman v Godbold

"under regulation 124 the mischief quite clearly is that a motor car whose engine is running is potentially dangerous, and the regulation requires that somebody, who is duly licensed to drive and therefore presumably is competent to drive, which is the relevant point, should either be in it or in close attendance on it. I agree that the word ‘close’ is not there, but that is clearly implicit."

Some interesting advice here - cheers all!

To cover a few points:
There is no risk of a thief trying to make off with my car if I were to leave the engine running - it's on my driveway, behind a thick steel gate that obviously has to be opened before I can drive away. I doubt a thief would have the time to open the gate, jump into the car and drive off. It is a very quiet area anyway.

I shall be locking the car with the spare key if ever I need to leave the engine running to help warm things up (does this really cause much wear, or is the only real problem is the wasted fuel??)

RE: the water advice: It wasn't icy enough to bother with any water on the windscreen to try to de-ice it, but when it is I will remember to use no more than lukewarm water - I canny afford to be replacing glass at a time like this!!

As for slippery puddles on the ground as the water re-freezes or something... isn't that what being a bloke is all about - the constant comedy as one of your mates does one of those "woaaaaaaaahhh!!" and their arms go up like chicken wings when one of their feet slip out from under them on the puddle? Pure comedy!

Health and safety? PAH!

Cheers all!

S.

MGF wrote:

zadocbrown wrote:I think I read about a case involving a filling station where it was found that the driver didn't necessarily have to be actualy inside the vehicle to be 'in attendance'. Anyone else remember that? (quite some time ago)

My recollection is that there is no legal requirement to be in the car but you must be with it to be in attendance.



Donaldson LJ in QBD of High Court 1980; case of Bulman v Godbold

"under regulation 124 the mischief quite clearly is that a motor car whose engine is running is potentially dangerous, and the regulation requires that somebody, who is duly licensed to drive and therefore presumably is competent to drive, which is the relevant point, should either be in it or in close attendance on it. I agree that the word ‘close’ is not there, but that is clearly implicit."

What 'danger' is envisaged?

In any case I would have thought the driver would need to be in the vehicle, and preferably in the driving seat, to have full scope for counteracting the likely dangers, even though we don't quite know what they are.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Shipwright wrote:.....if ever I need to leave the engine running to help warm things up (does this really cause much wear, or is the only real problem is the wasted fuel??)

Most manufacturers seem to advise driving away without delay, as idling does not get the oil circulating properly. I have no idea how significant this is.

waremark wrote:

Shipwright wrote:.....if ever I need to leave the engine running to help warm things up (does this really cause much wear, or is the only real problem is the wasted fuel??)

Most manufacturers seem to advise driving away without delay, as idling does not get the oil circulating properly. I have no idea how significant this is.

I suspect it is more significant in the case of petrol engines. As I envisage it, leaving a petrol engine idling immediately after a cold start means:

1. the establishment of full oil circulation is delayed
2. the rate of temperature rise is lower than if you drive off promptly
3 it extends the period during which the rich petrol mixture (required for cold starting and cold running) is attacking the oil film on cylinder walls, with a risk of increasing the cylinder/piston wear rate.

I imagine item 3 is less of a problem with diesel engines, due to the oily nature of the fuel injected, so I don't worry about it so much.

Even so, I still favour the idea of driving off without delay, whether it be a petrol or diesel engine, but treating the engine gently - i.e. light loads and restrained engine speeds - but giving it a moderate amount of work to do.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

A petrol engine will warm up if left idling. A diesel engine won't so idling a diesel is just wasting fuel.

Chris

ScoobyChris wrote:A petrol engine will warm up if left idling. A diesel engine won't so idling a diesel is just wasting fuel.

Why's that?

martine wrote:

ScoobyChris wrote:A petrol engine will warm up if left idling. A diesel engine won't so idling a diesel is just wasting fuel.

Why's that?

I don't know, and I doubt if it is true.

It seems more likely that the diesel engine will take longer to reach normal operating temperature than would a petrol engine, but I can't believe that it will not warm up at all.

There's more to this than meets the eye, so perhaps more information is needed here.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Because a diesel engine is thermally efficient and requires significant load to exceed that....

Chris

ScoobyChris wrote:Because a diesel engine is thermally efficient and requires significant load to exceed that....

Chris

No, sorry, I'm still in doubt about this.

I believe it is true that a diesel engine has a higher thermal efficiency than a petrol engine, but you're implying that it will not warm up at all if left idling.

That seems very unlikely to me, although it might take longer to warm up than does a petrol engine.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

My de-icing kit consists of my site gloves (to keep warm) and a Clubcard from a certain supermarket. Works a treat.

TripleS wrote:

ScoobyChris wrote:Because a diesel engine is thermally efficient and requires significant load to exceed that....

Chris

No, sorry, I'm still in doubt about this.

I believe it is true that a diesel engine has a higher thermal efficiency than a petrol engine, but you're implying that it will not warm up at all if left idling.

That seems very unlikely to me, although it might take longer to warm up than does a petrol engine.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

In my experience a modern diesel, left idling, will not warm up significantly (enough to produce sufficient heater output). It needs to be under load. Some modern diesel engined vehicles have fuel burning heaters to assist in raising the engine coolant temperatures in cold conditions. This is to enable sufficient heater output quickly and to reduce emissions.
At work we had problems with bore-glazing, leading to high oil consumption and emissions, with the diesel engines in some of the gritters. Crews were in the habit of starting them up and leaving them idling for prolonged periods. The engines did not warm up and they suffered premature and expensive failures.

Renny wrote:At work we had problems with bore-glazing, leading to high oil consumption and emissions, with the diesel engines in some of the gritters. Crews were in the habit of starting them up and leaving them idling for prolonged periods. The engines did not warm up and they suffered premature and expensive failures.

On the 'new' fleet - well it was new when I was there?

The MAN and Foden 4x4s were excellent when they first arrived, compared with the Leyland DAFs (one of which I think was kept as a stand by or maybe punishment motor). Still got memories of the old Magiris 6x6 with the 6' V-blade - now that was a machine!

Renny wrote:In my experience a modern diesel, left idling, will not warm up significantly (enough to produce sufficient heater output). It needs to be under load. Some modern diesel engined vehicles have fuel burning heaters to assist in raising the engine coolant temperatures in cold conditions. This is to enable sufficient heater output quickly and to reduce emissions.

Ah, now that's interesting, thank you. Soooooo......miscellaneous info:

Going back three or four years the Peugeot dealer that I go to was saying something about diesel fired heaters, and he seemed to be implying that such a device - rated at about 1 KW - was fitted on our 406 HDi. That took me completely by surprise but we were more concerned with other matters and I didn't question him further about it at the time.

Since then I've become aware that some motorhomes have space heating equipment that runs on diesel fuel supplied fom the vehicle fuel tank. These are apparently produced by a company called Eberspacher - or something like that, German firm maybe - and they are very expensive, something like £2000 or so, in which case I can't see such a device being fitted to a lowly 406, unless there is s very much simpler and cheaper version available purely for engine heating.

Having said all that (is there no limit to this guy's waffle? ) I did leave our 406 idling for about ten minutes on an extremely cold morning recently - while I cleaned glass and lights etc. - and the engine temperature did seem to increase at a reasonable rate.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

what about a simple car cover
from an old blanket to an exspensive custom fit breathable one

i use a mid-priced one and have no probelms all windows ice free, car ice free, slight re-icing once the galss is exposed but it soon wicks away with a strong mix of screen wash.