Why limit handling?

[TripleS]

Two excellant posts from JamesAllport and stefan einz.

Agreed, but I still wonder if this limit handling business is being a bit oversold; e.g. a 5 mph slide is hardly going to be life threatening, unless there are some very exceptional aspects to it, and that doesn't seem likely in a roundabout incident. Sorry, James.

I can see more justification for the spending of money on expert tuition in limit handling where one owns a very powerful car and wishes to use most of its performance, but again how much of that is really legitimate on a regular basis on public roads? I appreciate that it will permit more use of the performance, but with some drivers it might lead to things being pushed too far too often, in which case the overall effect might not be an improvement as far as safe driving is concerned.

Anyhow, just so that you don't think I dismiss the subject completely, I took Eileen's MX-5 out for a bit of fun on a deserted stretch of very icy road this morning. I tried a few experiments with excessive throttle opening on slight curves and cambers, and re-established my quick application of opposite lock skills (such as they are) and it all worked quite reliably at speeds of up to about 40 mph, beyond which I did not go. I think I'll stick with what I've gained from my 52 years.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[martine]

Thanks again guys - very useful opinions.

Do police driving schools do limit handling (apart from the obvious skid-pan)? If they do, how do they go about it and if they don't, why not?

[TripleS]

Thanks again guys - very useful opinions.

Do police driving schools do limit handling (apart from the obvious skid-pan)? If they do, how do they go about it and if they don't, why not?

Very good question!

They, at least, might be expected to be fully equipped with limit handling skills, and I can see more justification for such training in their case, but as far as I'm aware they do not do limit handling courses of the type being advocated here. I think Von has confirmed that to be the case.

Skid pan work (at about 20 mph max.?) is all they do, as far as I know, and that is significant in my mind. What they do appear to concentrate on is handling cars such that they stay comfortably away from the limit of grip, and cause minimum upset to the stability of the vehicle while still making very good progress. It seems to me a bit difficult to understandr normal road-going drivers wanting more than that, but no doubt they'll attempt to make their own case for it.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[JamesAllport]

Agreed, but I still wonder if this limit handling business is being a bit oversold; e.g. a 5 mph slide is hardly going to be life threatening, unless there are some very exceptional aspects to it, and that doesn't seem likely in a roundabout incident. Sorry, James.

Fair point. Hyperbole on my part. But there was a lot of traffic about to hit us in secondary collisions, and not all of that was so slow. But the idea of any collision with the nipper in the car strikes me as a very bad idea indeed.

They, at least, might be expected to be fully equipped with limit handling skills, and I can see more justification for such training in their case, but as far as I'm aware they do not do limit handling courses of the type being advocated here. I think Von has confirmed that to be the case.

Different schools do different things. Students at one school have been known to get a bit of time with Don Palmer at Bruntingthorpe as part of their advanced car course, and I know Don has coached at least one other school's senior instructors in the not too distant past.

[martine]

I think I'll stick with what I've gained from my 52 years.

Blimey and I thought you were ageing well until I read this...

[GJD]

It seems to me a bit difficult to understandr normal road-going drivers wanting more than that, but no doubt they'll attempt to make their own case for it.

Did you miss the bit where everyone was banging on about how much fun they thought it was?

Gavin

[jcochrane]

Not sure how others feel but I found training on skid pans as well as limit handling (not on skid pans) both beneficial for road driving. Of the two, though, I would say that I learnt much more from limit handling training that was useful in every day driving. And no I'm not talking about tearing around the countryside on the limit and tyres squealing. Rather a smoother, more balanced and safer drive.

[TripleS]

Agreed, but I still wonder if this limit handling business is being a bit oversold; e.g. a 5 mph slide is hardly going to be life threatening, unless there are some very exceptional aspects to it, and that doesn't seem likely in a roundabout incident. Sorry, James.

Fair point. Hyperbole on my part. But there was a lot of traffic about to hit us in secondary collisions, and not all of that was so slow. But the idea of any collision with the nipper in the car strikes me as a very bad idea indeed.

Ah yes, the potential for secondary collisions. They could indeed pose more of a threat.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

I think I'll stick with what I've gained from my 52 years.

Blimey and I thought you were ageing well until I read this...

Er, 52 years and 3 months of trying to learn how to drive motor vehicles, with a disputed degree of success.

The three score years plus ten comes up next weekend - and I still maintain I'm not ageing all that badly. I can still produce some distinctly juvenile (not to say infantile) stuff here, just in case you haven't noticed.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

It seems to me a bit difficult to understandr normal road-going drivers wanting more than that, but no doubt they'll attempt to make their own case for it.

Did you miss the bit where everyone was banging on about how much fun they thought it was?

Gavin

No, I didn't; but Martin recognised that spells of limit handling practise are best done using somebody else's tyres. I've no doubt it is good fun, and satisfying to add that skill to the set, but I really wouldn't want to treat my car in that fashion. From my own point of view the benefits do not justify the cost.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Porker]

I can think of a couple of occasions in the last decade where limit handling has helped me to avoid a collision.

Once, when a car driving towards me came over a blind crest with about a metre of its width over the centre line on a relatively narrow road.

Secondly, when a vehicle emerged from an unmarked entrance and came to a halt with its front bumper roughly on the centre line of the road.

I've also had a couple of low-grip-situation slides (both in unusual situations where the grip was very suddenly though not wholly unexpectedly greatly reduced in cold weather) where limit handling has helped. An appreciation of the possibility of a skid also helped, of course.

I cover about 35,000 miles per year in a variety of cars and in all weather conditions, so that's about one for every 90,000 miles travelled. Three of these four incidents were within 5 miles of my house.

Others' experience may of course be different, but I believe that equipping drivers with the ability to confidently manoeuvre their vehicles in moderately extreme circumstances probably is value for money (given an appropriate attitude to safety and responsibility on the part of the driver). There are other factors at work too of course.

Irrespective of that, I *want* to be able to do this if required and I enjoy acquiring the skills, and thus for me it represents something which I'm happy to invest in.

regards
P.

[MGF]

(3) Saving my life and that of my 2 year old son last week when the car in front of me lost control on an ice covered roundabout and spun back towards us. My training meant I was slow enough, and my steering was good enough, to miss him (just!); Both I and the other driver were doing about 5mph, incidentally so this was hardly hooning...

How can a driver losing control at 5 mph put you in danger of losing your life when you are also driving at 5 mph.

[faboka]

You never know tillit happens. What happens if as a result a person on the footpath or crossing the road is hit?

[crr003]

You never know tillit happens. What happens if as a result a person on the footpath or crossing the road is hit?

I thought if you hit a pedestrian at 30 there was an 80% chance they'd live? I would think that percentage would increase as the speed lowers to 5 m.p.h?

[JamesAllport]

How can a driver losing control at 5 mph put you in danger of losing your life when you are also driving at 5 mph.

Sorry again. I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some posts ago to Dave:

Fair point. Hyperbole on my part. But there was a lot of traffic about to hit us in secondary collisions, and not all of that was so slow. But the idea of any collision with the nipper in the car strikes me as a very bad idea indeed.

Happy new year to all.

J.