Is the driving test out of date?

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Postby TripleS » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:42 pm


Standard Dave wrote:He does come across as a bit of a whinger, and his quote about not knowing what he doesn't know seem to apply to him equally as it applies to those he critisies.

Braking in corners surely from a racing background he should know that's the best way to destabilise a car and leave the road or track. That practice by "ordinary" drivers would also encourage them to take too much speed into corners and therefore decrease their safety margines increasing their chance of a collison and the speed at which they will hit roadside furniture.

I expect many of those who criticise pull-push steering have never seen it done properly or at the speeds where proper control makes a difference to a road car. I'm unsure what he surgests instead except the practice of taking your hands off the wheel and allowing it to re-centre itself.

The driving test is failing to keep up with modern driving conditions but has changed massively since I took my test 10 years ago I think the lack of progress was for several decades before that when it remained largely unchanged and only now are the DSA trying to play catch up.

I watched a television programme on Dave recently where James May looked at training in Finland which featured Mika Hakkinen, it did show me how much better the scandinavians are at training and driving.

This is it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bmqdnx5R1U


By 'eck - '....I took my test 10 years ago....' etc. - I thought you were an established expert, not a relative beginner, Dave. :)

Anyhow, on to less frivolous matters:

There is nowt wrong with doing a bit of braking in corners. If you do it to excess, and clumsily, of course it's a good way of destablising a vehicle, but I don't think we want people getting paranoid about it and trying to completely avoid braking in corners. I mean to say, if they're going too fast, what are they supposed to do? Answer: They should get the brakes on as early as possible, according to the seriousness of the situation, and get the speed down. In most cases that's going to do less harm than shooting straight off the road, which they may well do if the speed is seriously excessive and not reduced at all! Check with my Stressed friend about the scope for combining braking with cornering. It can be done quite successfully actually, so let's keep an open mind about that.

With regard to pull-push steering, nobody ought to try to dismiss the technique completely, but nor should they try to suggest it should be used at all times. Use it where you feel it is best for you but use other techniques as well if you feel they suit you better.

I once saw an example of pull-push steering: It was shoulders back, head up, straight arms, hands moving very deliberately between 12 and 6 on the steering wheel - it was a real example of laying it on if ever I saw it. Conclusion: Beware of people who launch too readily into giving demonstration drives lest you find certain things getting a bit oversold.

Right, I'll try to remember to keep away from Lincolnshire and the East Midlands. ;)

Best wishes all,
Dave - still a bit sceptical now and again. :lol:
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Postby Mr Cholmondeley-Warner » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:03 am


So, Dave, if you find yourself going a bit too fast in a corner, what did you do wrong? :wink:

Of course you need to brake when you get it wrong, but what Sir John was advocating was more likely braking into corners as a matter of course, i.e. pushing the envelope a little. That's great, until you start pushing it a bit farther each time, and eventually run out of brakes at the wrong moment....
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Postby Flexibase » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:00 pm


There is an excellent, well reasoned and researched, reposte to Sir John's item on "Pull-push" by Chris Gilbert, the retired Met. Police Sergeant of "Roadcraft Video" and "Ultimate Driving Craft DVD" (http://www.driving4tomorrow.com/) fame.

It appeared in an AIRSO (http://www.airso.org.uk/) publication - probably in the members only section, but
I have Chris' consent to reproduce his corrected version in any way I see fit, so I will see if it will "fit" into this forum in my next message.
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Postby Flexibase » Sat Jan 30, 2010 2:02 pm


By Chris Gilbert.

Pull Push Steering IS the best and safest way.

For more than 21 years I have sat back, kept silent, and have not bothered to comment on Sir John Whitmore’s views on steering. Now however, I have come to the conclusion that it is time to speak out and redress the balance on steering methods.
I have become increasingly concerned that drivers and ADIs may have been unsettled of late about their steering technique.
Some may have adopted hand over hand steering rather than continue with the trusted pull-push method. This in my view would be a very dangerous step to take, given all the evidence I am about to present to you.
My advice to all drivers and DSA Approved Driving Instructors is under no circumstances venture away from pull-push steering no matter how compelling the argument may seem to be. Pull-push is the safest and best way to turn a motor vehicle steering wheel.
My view is based upon my vast, wide ranging experience in the field of driver training covering some 40 years and a million plus instructional miles on the public highway.
The Evidence
Putting my opinion aside for one moment, I want to deal with proven and undeniable facts. I will provide the evidence and refer you to websites were you can research for yourself the facts, enabling you to form your own opinion.
I will set out the facts on two fronts:-
(a) Air bag Deployment Injuries and
(b) Accurate Smooth Safe Steering.

Air bag Deployment.
Sir John says that in an emergency a driver will always cross their hands because it is the quickest way to steer. That is not true! Drivers who use pull push will continue to use their natural steering technique and have no need to change in an emergency. I will come back to that later but the evidence I have uncovered found that many air bag injuries occurred in non emergency situations at speeds as low as 5 MPH.
On many of the latest motor cars, mine included, the air bag will deploy even when the vehicle is stationary, such as side impact or another driver reversing into the front of the vehicle.
Air bag injuries to which I refer can be serious hand and arm injuries. This includes fractured wrists, fingers, thumbs, arms and elbows some have been compound fractures. In some cases resulting in amputation. It will be seen that the evidence points to drivers using hand over hand steering or incorrect steering grip.
One example was an American lady who had her thumb almost torn off as a result of her air bag deploying as she was manoeuvring at 5 MPH. Having misjudged her turn into her driveway, her car fender (bumper) hit a wooden post; the air bag deployed injuring her thumb.
American Research and Case History
In the United States of America air bags have been in use far longer than in the UK. It is there that most of the research has been conducted and much evidence has been gathered by The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA). It is from US websites that I found disturbing evidence, some very surprising. Please have a look at the following sites.
www.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/rulings/deactnpr.n21.html
Also the following sites. Remember to underscore the spaces.
www.airbagonoff.com/new_page_17.htm
www.airbagonoff.com/dr_smock’s_research.htm
There is a great deal of evidence on websites involving low speed air bag deployment where in our terms the driver has not been steering correctly. The details are extensive and will take much time to digest.
Air Bag Module Cover
So, how have these injuries come about and can they be avoided?
The answer is quite simply ‘Yes, they can be avoided by the driver steering correctly’. Correctly means pull-push or shuffle steering as the Americans call it. It appears most American drivers, other than police drivers, cross their hands when steering. Problems arise when a driver has their hands or arms over the Airbag Module Cover, situated in the centre of the steering wheel, when the airbag deploys. The driver’s hands and arms are thrust upwards by the force of the air bag and impact into the driver’s approaching face, and can cause dreadful injuries. These injuries are exacerbated the wearing of a watch, ring or bracelet tearing into the driver’s face. When the air bag deploys, it deploys at around 210 MPH with a force of around 1200lbs. UK and European air bags deploy with less pressure.
Correct Grip and Steering Action
If the driver is holding the steering wheel correctly and not crossing hands (hand over hand steering), the air bag will deploy safely between the driver’s arms causing none of the injuries as described previously. If ever there was a case for not crossing hands or steering hand over hand, then this must be it.

Quarter to three, not ten to two!
The American driving experts are advising drivers to hold the steering wheel lower at quarter to 3 so that the arms are well away from the airbag module cover in the event of its deployment. They recommend steering action by sliding the hands up and down each side of the steering wheel, each hand mirroring the other, neither hand passing the 12 or 6 o’clock positions. In other words they advocate pull-push or shuffle steering, not hand over hand. This equally applies to slow speed manoeuvres, such as parking, for reasons made all too clear by the lady and her thumb. I personally do not like the expression ‘shuffle steering’ as it conjures thoughts of small bites of hand movement and lots of shuffling. That of course is not the case.
A very interesting site, it is a must look at. www.emsresponder.com/article/article.jsp?id=4390
‘Driver Airbag Hand Injuries; 10 and 2 is Not the Rule’. Here, you will find sound advice about steering grip and shuffle steering.
Looking back to your driver’s education, you will be posed the following questions:-
· Did the instructor teach you to hold the steering wheel at the 10 and 2 o’clock positions?
· Were you taught to use hand over hand steering?
· Do you steer your vehicle with one hand on top of the wheel?

I believe the questions are thought provoking.
Hypothetically, if a driver had been taught hand over hand steering or an incorrect steering hold, would this make the instructor culpable in the event of that driver sustaining a serious injury following air bag deployment?
I am certain, given the American culture for suing, this would be the case. I just wonder - could that ever happen here in the UK?
To Conclude Airbag Injuries
In their report on airbag injuries the NHTSA state and I quote. ‘Passengers and drivers are safer with an airbag than without. Never the less, the current number of deaths and serious injuries attributed to air bag deployment in low speed crashes is disturbing. A large number of arm injuries have been attributed to air bag deployment, both in low and high speed crashes’. You will find that report on the NHTSA site.
It is my opinion that steering hand position and crossing arms over the Air Bag Module Cover are the cause of the vast majority, if not all, of the arm and hand injuries during airbag deployment in the United States. There is no doubt many such incidents occur here in the UK.
Back to Sir John’s comment that in an emergency a driver will cross their hands to steer quickly. That may be true of the reactionary driver driving with their eyes on ‘dipped’ rather than ‘main beam’. They suffer with the ‘suddenly syndrome’ when many things become urgent and they may very well find they have to steer quickly.
The secret of good driving is driving with a high visual horizon, incorporating good vision scans positioning correctly and thereby adjusting road speed so a situation, even a hint of one, does not develop into a full blown emergency. These are the fundamentals upon which Roadcraft was conceived.
Now we must realise how dangerous it is to cross hands on the steering wheel, above all in the event of an emergency. You do not need to cross your hands to steer quickly. Pull-push will always deal with given emergencies and has the added


advantage of being able to easily reverse the steering direction without getting the arms tangled up.
My Experience
I taught hundreds of learner drivers between 1964 and 1972 and whilst serving as a police sergeant, class 1 staff instructor, at the Metropolitan Police Motor Driving School Hendon I taught 999 driving, LGV, PCV, skid pan and high performance advanced pursuit driving. In 1991 I became a DSA PCV/LGV Delegated Driving Examiner and as an ADI I have never held a grade lower than 6.
I feel my experience of training to the very highest level on the public highway is far more relevant experience to judge steering method than Sir John’s experience on a race track.
A Million Plus Instructional Miles
During my twenty two years at Hendon I travelled over a million instructional miles, all over the country, by day and night, in all weather conditions. Driving and instructing in a selection of motor cars from V8 Rovers to the BMW M3. Under an Act of Parliament I have driven and trained at speeds of more than twice the National Speed Limit. The public road environment is far more hazardous than driving around a track where marshals are employed track side to wave yellow flags in the event of impending danger.
Yet during that time I never had a collision, never caused one, never left the road, never had a lock up or even activated the ABS. I repeat; a million miles of safe, collision free driving, much of it, well above the National Speed Limit. I owe that achievement to Roadcraft and pull-push method of steering.


DSA – Roadcraft
The DSA driving technique is not that dissimilar to Roadcraft driving at speeds up to 70 MPH. Unless there is a commentary being given, and then the wording would give it away. A DSA Examiner would find it very difficult to recognise DSA or Roadcraft driving.
Pull Push – Accurate & Very Safe.
During all my instructional life I have never found pull-push steering wanting in any way whatsoever, both on the public highway or on the skid pan. Sir John has said pull-push is potentially dangerous. Given the working environment that the emergency workers in particular endue, there is no evidence to suggest this to be the case.
Hair Raising Moments
My steering experiences during 22 years of employment at Hendon are opposed to Sir John’s view. I admit I did have a number of hair raising experiences travelling at high speed on slippery roads but only when a student deviated from the pull- push method. This often unsettled the balance of the car causing the student to stiffen, grip the wheel tighter and make the situation worse. I found pull-push to be far more accurate and a smoother action than hand over hand steering. It is often said ‘if it looks right, it is right. Pull-push looks right. Hand over hand looks very awkward and clumsy.
Sir John’s Opportunity
In 1989-93 I was a member of the Home Office Working Party investigating driving techniques for possible changes to and entry into Roadcraft. We opened ourselves up to change and invited all driving experts to have their input.
To give an example: Mr K Bamford, a Physics School Master from a Yorkshire Grammar School wrote in and told us there was no such thing as centrifugal force acting upon a car in a bend. We bowed to his better knowledge and changed Roadcraft. We invited Sir John Whitmore to Hendon to discuss his views on steering. We gave him the opportunity to convince us hand over hand was better than pull-push. We were open to suggestion, looking to make positive change where necessary, particularly if Sir John’s theories were proven correct.
I spent the day with Sir John along with Mr Colin Urqhart the Chief Civilian Instructor at the time. We spent most of the morning discussing Roadcraft and steering. We then gave Sir John the opportunity to demonstrate his steering technique on the skid pan. All I am prepared to say is Sir John was unable to
display his preferred method of steering to any advantage. The skid pan instructor using pull-push had far better control than Sir John. At the start of the day we were open to suggestion, by its end we were left unimpressed, in no way convinced, that hand over hand steering was better or the equal of pull-push. Sir John stated he had no issues with Roadcraft, other than those around steering concepts. His demonstration had only served us to differ.
Police Steering in the United States.
In 1986 I visited the Los Angeles Police Driver Training Facility, then situated at Pomona to compare police driver training methods. There, I met Sergeant William Smith Jr. Bill told me that due to a high number of police collisions, attributed to hand over hand steering The LAPD had, in 1971, implemented a change of steering method to what he called shuffle steering. It soon became apparent to me that shuffle steering was their name for our pull-push. This change of steering had reduced the number collisions significantly and as a result shuffle steering was implemented throughout California, including The Sheriffs Dept, Highway Patrol and State Troopers.
Bill has now retired from the LAPD and he now works for a company who train police officers in pursuit driving on a simulator. Bill writes pursuit scenarios and also travels throughout the whole of the U.S. training police drivers. I decided a few days ago to contact Bill to ask him what was happening now in the US with regards to pull-push or shuffle steering. Here is his reply.
‘Hi Chris, LAPD was teaching shuffle steering when I took over the Unit in 1971. All academies in California (38+) teach shuffle steering. In my travels throughout the USA I find all police departments indicate they teach a shuffle or pull push as you call it. It is almost nationwide. We now realise how dangerous it is to cross hands on the steering wheel, even in an emergency’.
Bill also said he would be quite happy to travel to the UK to discuss steering with Sir John, at Sir John’s expense of course.
Conclusion
I believe I have proven the case for pull-push steering even without consideration to the air bag problem. I also believe there is overwhelming evidence from the US that at low speeds and even in non urgent situations, air bag deployment when the arms are over the Airbag Module Cover can have serious or even fatal consequences. I think the case for pull-push is even stronger than previously, but I am not surprised by that.
I additionally feel, given all this undeniable evidence, ADIs MUST always teach pull push steering, and never allow a pupil to steer hand over hand under any circumstances.
Consideration must also be given to implementing a change from 10-2 to a quarter to three (dependent upon the specific car’s steering wheel configuration), thus preventing arms being positioned over the Air Bag Module Cover.

Under Health and Safety, an ADI can then never be accused of teaching unsafe steering practices and resulting injuries will be minimal if not wholly prevented.
Chris Gilbert.
www.driving4tomorrow.com
========================
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Postby AlistairL » Sat Jan 30, 2010 4:10 pm


Groan. I am really frustrated by something that starts with a discussion of driver attitudes and then falls down a hole by getting bogged down with machine control issues.

Yes there are issues with driver training that has it's roots in the needs of police driving, but at the moment noone else bothers to spend money on developing and maintaining an alternative for civilians.

Perhaps Whitmore is wanting to become a new Cottenham, but these days the best work is coming from the engineers and sports psychologists - I can't see Button or Hamilton being involved in a shake up of Hendon, or Haslam or Toseland on two wheels. Imagine the consulting fees to get them involved, "the public" would be up in arms at the money spent!

And it is a delicious irony that today's police pursuits are reliant on helicopter pilots trained by the Royal Navy and Airforce. :evil:
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Postby edwin_b » Sat Jan 30, 2010 5:21 pm


It is helpful to have Chris Gilbert's full explanation of the benefit of pull-push in relation to airbag deployment, which is generally convincing. Two points arise, for me.

First, there is no mention of pull-push, or the best hand positioning, when reversing. The argument about slow-speed airbag deployment holds good in reverse, for instance on hitting an obstacle. Does this mean that pull-push should be used in reverse? If so, it incurs the disadvantage of restricting the body-twist needed to see out of the back, for those of us who are not practised contortionists. I have always turned very fully for a good view, with left arm over the back of the passenger seat and steering with right hand crossing 12 o'clock as needed. There is a balance of risk here; what's the answer?

Secondly, I generally use pull-push (not least to keep up IAM and RoSPA standards!) but do find it physically difficult at slow speed when a rapid sharp change of direction is needed e.g. turning into a side road smartly, at 90 degrees or more. To perform pull-push then requires very fast arm movements and a significant risk of losing hand grip. Does anyone else find this? Here again there is a balance of risk to be decided: airbag deployment v. loss of grip and fine control. I suggest that the latter is a greater risk than the former, and so hand-over-hand is less risky.

All suggestions and counter arguments seriously considered !

Derek Bradbury

PS Many recommended driving techniques seem to me to come down to a balance of risks. Unfortunately this is rarely discussed explicitly, let alone researched for a scientific answer. Is that because risk and probability is poorly understood in general, or because people have to have "the" right method (and will argue for ever for their own preference) ?
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Postby zadocbrown » Sat Jan 30, 2010 6:22 pm


The front airbags are activated by a frontal impact. That wouldn't often happen when reversing.

Indeed, the best policy would seem to be to simply avoid any close encounters with air bags - by not hitting things!!
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Postby Standard Dave » Sat Jan 30, 2010 7:36 pm


I've never had a problem with my hands not being fast enough at low speed to pull push round a corner.
One of the first training exercises on my standard grade police driving course was to go onto a housing estate and drive round taking the first left turn for whole circuits and then repeat it taking the right. Thats done to get drivers used to pull push steering.

The vehicle controls on a modern track racing car are so different from a road car that anything that is applied to those vehicle is of little use to most road drivers.
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Postby waremark » Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:07 am


Thanks David W for posting Chris Gilbert's article in support of Pull-Push.

My personal opinion is that it does not matter too much what method of steering is used; it matters more that whatever method is used it should be used well.

The greatest reservation I have about the way steering is currently taught is that most drivers seem to abandon the method they were taught very soon after passing their test. They then move on to a self-developed method which probably gives them less good control than any method which might be taught. I wonder whether there is another method which if taught to learners would be more likely to continue to be used.
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Postby Martin A » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:19 pm


Hi All

I posted this reply to the Whitmore article on the Telegraph website:

...Although I am aware of the possibilities offered by performance coaching it is simply another, and as can be seen from the last hundred years of people learning to drive, not the only method of learning that can be employed in driver education. One of the problems with using this technique exclusively is that it is economically impractical and unsafe to learn clutch use through self-awareness and self-assessment.

I would agree, as seems to be acknowledged, that driver personality traits are much more of an influence on crashes than contentious driving technique issues (few people have a sufficient understanding of the physics of vehicle dynamics to make comments that stand up to scientific investigation and are generally anecdotal misinterpretation). However an assurance that a driver can control a car and has knowledge of traffic protocol is obviously necessary before allowing them on the road.

Research shows that most drivers, especially those often regarded as dangerous, consider themselves better than average. This makes sense if we consider the number of drivers that start each year alive and uninjured and those are alive and uninjured at the end of the year. Statistically then, even if the average driver has a 99.99% chance of being alive and uninjured, the vast majority will be 100% alive and uninjured and therefore have evidence that they are indeed above average.

Driving though is not just a personal thing. It involves interaction with others and driving can cause them fear and alarm when not predictably safe. This expands on the ideas in Mind-Driving that we should be predictable. Being predictable is not good if the prediction is of danger. Others should be able to predict that a driver’s actions are safe, as explained here. http://www.road-and-track.co.uk/predict ... afety.html

A major problem with the road safety message is the believability of driving instructors and official information. That’s not to say that instructors aren’t trying to deliver an adequate service, it’s just that that service is designed for a market needing minimal rather than high quality education.

Instructors tend to teach things such as steering, whether fixed or pull-push, in a dogmatic way, as this is seen as necessary to enable people to pass the test. The pupil though can see things can work safely, when done by themselves and others, in many different ways that would not be acceptable for the test (letting go of the steering to straighten up for instance). It is likely therefore that they will pick and choose what else they want to believe according to their own particular agenda. This evidence that they are being told lies makes delivering a safety message much more difficult.

The problem with the quality of instruction, aside from being driven by dogma is that the purchase of driving lessons is largely governed by cost, as driving instructors are perceived as being homogenous in ability. This leads to people basing the decision to buy on how much time they are going get for their money rather than paying for what is learned. Those that believe in the value of top quality instruction and are in the position to pay for it will also have trouble seeking it out.


I would add here that even those well off individuals willing to spend tens of thousands of pounds on cars, who are interested in being better drivers, tend to seek out free 'instruction' provided by charities.

The cost of driving lessons is in effect set by BSM. What people don’t realise is that that cost is set by what BSM charge for supplying instructors that aren’t fully qualified. The customer is duped, and pays the same whether the instructor is on their first day of six months permitted on a trainee licence (in figures for the first half of the last decade fewer than 50% of BSM trainees were good enough to qualify, with less than a third qualifying in 2002), or is qualified and has been instructing for some years. Other schools then copy the practice in order to remain competitive.

Better instructors tend to cream off to the corporate post test training arena where they can get more money for less stress, leaving those that aren’t so good to seek learner business through price cutting.

With BSM being probably being generally perceived as the market leader in quality, due to being the longest established (as well as having the greatest share) it is tricky from a business point of view to charge more. As has been shown by studies, the world-wide learner industry does not therefore attract high calibre individuals as teachers due to the low level of remuneration. A point acknowledged by the government.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/re ... 751?page=2

“…we take the general position that you get what you pay for. At present pupils do not pay much and if they are not careful in their choice of ADI will not receive much of value in return.”

In spite of that, more recently in the Executive Summary of the Learning to Drive consultation

http://driving-tests.gov.uk/Documents/C ... 080508.pdf

the government report called for better instruction but said, “We do not want to burden the learner with extra costs”

Until government and expert become less dogmatic, and consumer attitude to instructor pay changes we are likely to see little alteration in this arena that claims more young lives every year.


Any thoughts?

Best regards

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Postby edwin_b » Sun Jan 31, 2010 12:59 pm


Thanks to zadocbrown for the comment on airbag deployment when reversing. I confess it is news to me that they only work with a frontal collision. Does this mean that they don't deploy when the car is shunted from the rear? What about side collisions (T-boning)? I'd be grateful for a definitive reference or two as I can't readily find one via search engine.

Thanks also to Standard Dave, who is lucky that he can perform fast pull-push at low speed in sharp corners. But I don't think that means that it is within everybody's capability, particularly as one gets older, stiffer and weaker in grip. Then there is a definite trade-off decision to be made between clearing a junction corner quickly by hand-over-hand and risking airbag deployment while an arm is crossed. On the whole I think that the former is less risky than the latter for some corners and traffic conditions. As before, I'd love to see serious discussion of pros and cons, rather than simple advocacy of the "best" or "personal" methods.

Derek Bradbury
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Postby zadocbrown » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:44 pm


Martin A wrote:driving instructors are perceived as being homogenous in ability. This leads to people basing the decision to buy on how much time they are going get for their money rather than paying for what is learned.


My impression is that most people do realise that instructors are not all alike - but they believe that success depends on their own innate ability more than the instruction they recieve.

In any case, as most people have little idea how to identify quality instruction or even what constitutes it, I can understand why they go for cheap.
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Postby zadocbrown » Sun Jan 31, 2010 4:23 pm


edwin_b wrote: I confess it is news to me that they only work with a frontal collision. Does this mean that they don't deploy when the car is shunted from the rear? What about side collisions (T-boning)? I'd be grateful for a definitive reference or two as I can't readily find one via search engine.


Different systems are set up in different ways. Generally though, only the airbag between the occupant and the impact zone will trigger - so front airbag in a frontal collision, or side airbag for a side impact. They don't normally deploy in rear shunts.
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Postby MikeB » Sun Jan 31, 2010 5:59 pm


If Edwin has difficulty in using pull/push on sharp 90 degree turns I would suggest that, like many drivers, he may be sitting a bit too close to the wheel preventing use of the whole wheel rim from 12 o'clock to almost 6 o'clock on a left turn for example. Being able to do so has the advantage that less pulls and pushes are used and there is little chance of losing your hand grip; and in any case this is likely to involve less hand and arm actions than rotaional steering. I prefer to use pull/push on skid pans as I find it quick and easy.
Another advantage of sitting far enough back is that one's feet are able to move around the pedals more easily to facilitate brake covers etc and the angle of the right foot to ankle will be less acute leading to more comfort on long journeys.

Mike Beavan
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Postby Horse » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:59 pm


ROG wrote:
Is the driving test out of date?

The problem is post test.

Newly passed drivers are told to carry on learning and get experience - err..... how do they know if they are learning correctly and the experiences they are learning from are the correct ones ?????????????

What is missing is early thinking (attitude) training


Which, interestingly enough, is the subject of a two-page article in the latest DIA 'Driving' magazine, on developing the self-awareness of learners, and avoiding - particularly with young male drivers - the 'anti' feelings that can come from being 'told what to do'.

Oh - article written by Sir John Whitmore ;)
Anything posted by 'Horse' may be (C) Malcolm Palmer. Please ask for permission before considering any copying or re-use outside of forum posting.
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