Just lost some NCB :(

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

On motorways, drifting towards the white lines is a near-infallible indication of intent - even if there is no signal yet - it often precedes it.

When someone is in a junction to your left, waiting to emerge, watching their wheels will tell you the instant the car starts to move, much more easily than watching for movement in the car itself.

[martine]

Loads of good advice in earlier posts - to which, I can't add (I seem to be getting all 'yoda' ).

I had a very similar accident a few years ago (B.A-D*) and the driver of the lorry I went to overtake (and subsequently crunched) was good enough to admit liability - so no prob. with losing NCB. There were no witnesses either...I was lucky and I doff my driving trilby (only joking) to the gent of a driver for owning up.

I would think it's worth disputing - she shouldn't turn right without taking proper observations and indicating in good time...I don't believe you should be liable - unless she tells porkies and the witnesses don't help.

*B.A-D = before Advanced Driving

[44 Tonnes]

Agree entirely with GJB's post re how can the ins. co. make out its your fault.

Ofcourse the lady concerned will have stated on her claim form that she WAS indicating right & you passed her.

However, you were travelling in a straight course (albeit on the wrong side of the road) whilst she turned into you.
Surely it's her responsibility to ensure it is safe before carrying out such a manoevre.

....... and I'm firmly in the horm warning camp.

Edit: Just noted I'm reviving an old thread.

What was the outcome OP?

[WhoseGeneration]

It's time for another of those "what could I have done differently?" moments.

Situation as follows: wide residential road subject to a 30 limit and no parked cars, I'm follwing another car at a safe distance and there's another car behind me. Car in front of me becomes very hesitent, slows considerably to about walking pace for maybe 5 or 6 seconds. It's a wide straight road, nothing oncoming and the car behind isn't moving out yet so I decide to pass, only just as I'm level with the car I'd been following she turns right across me into a driveway only beginning to signal as she does so. I didn't have space to avoid contact, but thankfully the only harm was to our bumpers and my pride. Should I have given her longer before deciding to pass? Might a horn warning have been appropriate? Assume nobody bothers with mirrors or knows how to use their signals appropriately?

Subsequent discussions with my insurers suggest I'm at fault as far as they're concerned, so I guess it'll be one to put down to experience. Interestingly, in making her claim the TP suggested I'd attempted to pass both the car behind me and her, which was not the case but suggests to me she probably wasn't fully aware of what was going on behind before turning. Obviously the insurers also have the details of the driver of the following car as a witness not involved.

I'm kicking myself for not seeing this one developing

It's a lesson, sorry to say. Me, I'd have just stayed behind and said to myself, "Now let's see what you're up to".
The slowing being the clue.
Yes, always assume every other driver has no awareness, their mission being their only concern.

[Jonathan]

What was the outcome OP?

Received three months after the incident:

This claim has now been settled. Your No Claims Bonus has been reduced in accordance with the terms and conditions of your policy, as stated in your Policy Booklet.

We can confirm the cost of the claim was £1554.76.

Must admit I did suggest that perhaps the lady should have made proper checks and been aware of me in the first place only to be told I'm still at fault because, and I quote "as motorists it's our responsibility to be aware of our surroundings". Grrrr! Never mind, it's all good experience and I'll certainly be more careful next time. We can't expect everyone to hold our own high standards

[vonhosen]

Must admit I did suggest that perhaps the lady should have made proper checks and been aware of me in the first place only to be told I'm still at fault because, and I quote "as motorists it's our responsibility to be aware of our surroundings". Grrrr! Never mind, it's all good experience and I'll certainly be more careful next time. We can't expect everyone to hold our own high standards

Your insurance company expect it with your quote from them, both parties were motorists.

[TripleS]

My only moving accident on the roads occurred in this way, about 25 years ago. Now I'm very wary about overtaking people moving very slowly, for just that reason.

I'm afraid I don't agree with those who advocate horn warnings in this scenario. The correct thing to do in this situation IMHO is to hang back and wait to see what the driver in front is doing. Passing them is just asking for trouble, and horn warnings only serve to make us seem more impatient than we really wish to appear.

Yes, I understand your anxiety about not wishing to appear impatient, and I agree with you. Even so, I'd still tend to advocate the toot of horn, especially where we have somebody else behind us who might become impatient and take some unwelcome action.

I have complained about this previously, but now that we normally have the horn activated by pressing some part of the steering wheel centre, it is difficult to give a quiet(ish) horn note, which is all we should need at low speeds. The difficulty we now have in producing that soft toot is a weakness in modern designs.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

I drove recently with a police instructor who suggested that, when you're wondering whether another car's about to do something dodgy (i.e. turn across you or in this case into you), you get the earliest warning from watching the wheels, rather than the whole car. I'm trying to apply this in my own driving at the moment, so can't say I'm completely convinced yet, but it's an interesting thought.

James

I think it's a very helpful suggestion, but if you're in a position where you can see the other driver moving a hand to a position on the steering wheel that suggests some right lock is about to be applied, that would be even better, I'd say.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

you get the earliest warning from watching the wheels, rather than the whole car.

It's true. Surprisingly useful on the motorway, and also roundabouts. Doubtful whether it would have helped the OP in his particular situation though.

I've heard it suggested for motorways before too. But I wasn't sure whether the first indication was supposed to be seeing the wheels turn slightly, or seeing the gap between the wheels and the white lines of the lane markings reduce.

I think the latter point is the most useful one. At motorway speeds the steered wheels will not normally turn through sufficient of an angle to be readily noticed; unless the driver is making a very rapid lane change, in which case you would have very little time to react anyhow.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

What was the outcome OP?

Received three months after the incident:

This claim has now been settled. Your No Claims Bonus has been reduced in accordance with the terms and conditions of your policy, as stated in your Policy Booklet.

We can confirm the cost of the claim was £1554.76.

Must admit I did suggest that perhaps the lady should have made proper checks and been aware of me in the first place only to be told I'm still at fault because, and I quote "as motorists it's our responsibility to be aware of our surroundings". Grrrr! Never mind, it's all good experience and I'll certainly be more careful next time. We can't expect everyone to hold our own high standards

Wow, you can't have much of a shunt for 1500 quid these days!

Anyhow, I'm sorry about this, Jonathan. I don't think it ought have been deemed your fault to this extent.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[morsing]

Must admit I did suggest that perhaps the lady should have made proper checks and been aware of me in the first place only to be told I'm still at fault because, and I quote "as motorists it's our responsibility to be aware of our surroundings". Grrrr! Never mind, it's all good experience and I'll certainly be more careful next time. We can't expect everyone to hold our own high standards

I would fight this...

Wasn't she a motorist too?

[fungus]

Was there a witness? What did their statement say?

I had an accident about six and a half years ago. A driver drove across the front of my car to exit a roundabout from the right hand lane, (we were in the left hand lane going ahead,) the rear N/S of his car impacting the front O/S of mine, spinning him 180 degrees. This car was not visible when we entered the roundabout. The only witness said in her statement that the learner drove into his car causing him to spin Although my insurance company felt that the other driver was to blame, the fact that the only witness was against my pupil and I, they felt that we would not have a chance if it went to court, due to no favourable witness.

[Jonathan]

The problem with witnesses is that they can only say what they think they saw, which might differ considerably from what actually happened! I did email my insurer and ask for written details of any statements they had on record relating to that incident (never did contact the witness myself, assuming it would be down to the insurer to do that) and only got a phone call in return assuring me they'd taken everything into account and considered me to be 100% at fault based on my own description of events. I could throw my toys out of the pram but given it was nearly four months ago now and I'd probably get no further than I did when I tried to claim for a pothole, or against a dealer that sold me a car that suffered a spectacular engine failure a few months later... I'm not convinced it's worth it.

I agree with the post about the trend towards horn buttons being positioned in the centre of the steering wheel making it difficult to deliver a short toot. Infuriating!!

[morsing]

I had an accident about six and a half years ago. A driver drove across the front of my car to exit a roundabout from the right hand lane, (we were in the left hand lane going ahead,) the rear N/S of his car impacting the front O/S of mine, spinning him 180 degrees. This car was not visible when we entered the roundabout. The only witness said in her statement that the learner drove into his car causing him to spin Although my insurance company felt that the other driver was to blame, the fact that the only witness was against my pupil and I, they felt that we would not have a chance if it went to court, due to no favourable witness.

Have you ever considered fittin gcameras in your learner car? For training and insurance purposes?

[fungus]

I had an accident about six and a half years ago. A driver drove across the front of my car to exit a roundabout from the right hand lane, (we were in the left hand lane going ahead,) the rear N/S of his car impacting the front O/S of mine, spinning him 180 degrees. This car was not visible when we entered the roundabout. The only witness said in her statement that the learner drove into his car causing him to spin Although my insurance company felt that the other driver was to blame, the fact that the only witness was against my pupil and I, they felt that we would not have a chance if it went to court, due to no favourable witness.

Have you ever considered fittin gcameras in your learner car? For training and insurance purposes?

It's something I could give consideration to.

Some advive I was given yesterday from an accident investigator, was to take photos of all persons and the third parties vehicle when involved in an accident. The reason given was that insurance companies are experiencing increasing numbers of injury claims that involve "ghost passengers".