Poor Driving

[jont]

I think the question is why do people harp on so much about road safety but decline to take simple steps to protect themselves until it is forced on them? (and then they moan like hell)

Because they are a good driver, it's everyone else that is the problem/liability

[Gareth]

I think the question is why do people harp on so much about road safety but decline to take simple steps to protect themselves until it is forced on them? (and then they moan like hell)

First because they don't know about the availability of winter and all season tyres, and then because of concerns about cost, (lifetime of tyres, swapping tyres on existing wheels or having two sets of wheels), worries about storage space for wheels/tyres not in use, and finally because they think all season tyres are pants.

The last point is particularly interesting because there is much internet comment from people who speak from a theoretical standpoint to the effect that all season tyres are a poor compromise. Given there are a range of qualities available, that may be true at the bottom end of the market, but in our limited experience all season tyres are hugely better than summer tyres in wintery conditions.

This morning I caught up a Freelander on an otherwise empty main road, a thin layer of snow on the ground except for the lane of slush we were using. The temperature was -2C. I was driving a fwd diesel. The speed limit is 50 and I was happy to go just under that speed but the driver in front was keeping to 30. I suspect the Freelander didn't have the best tyres for the conditions

[jont]

This morning I caught up a Freelander on an otherwise empty main road, a thin layer of snow on the ground except for the lane of slush we were using. The temperature was -2C. I was driving a fwd diesel. The speed limit is 50 and I was happy to go just under that speed but the driver in front was keeping to 30. I suspect the Freelander didn't have the best tyres for the conditions

While the last comment on tyres is probably true, I suspect people also don't know how to work out how much grip is available to chose a safe speed. In wet conditions in the summer I am often still comfortable driving at NSL (where legal etc etc), but some people seem to automatically slow down because it's wet - not thinking that if dry, a safe speed could be double NSL therefore even in worse conditions NSL is still safe.

[TripleS]

OK, does anybody know what class of tyre is fitted on the production line to normal run of the mill cars?

If the answer is all-season tyres, most of my complaints disappear, so long as those tyres enable us to get around satisfactorily in the range of conditions normally encountered in the UK.

If anybody then wants enhanced tyre properties for summer use, and different tyres with a different range of enhanced properties for winter use, that's fine - but it's not something I, and most drivers, I expect - would want to be bothered with.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

If the answer is all-season tyres, most of my complaints disappear

Probably not, based on the thought that manufacturers probably provide tyres that are commonly available in a particular territory, that are cheap for them to buy, and that are economical to use.

If anybody then wants enhanced tyre properties for summer use [...] it's not something I, and most drivers, I expect - would want to be bothered with.

I contend that part isn't true. I reckon most people buy the cheapest available at the tyre fitters. Perhaps more discerning people pick tyres that have a long life or a notably low rolling resistance, but both of those would be based on long term rather than short term economy.

[GJD]

I reckon most people buy the cheapest available at the tyre fitters.

I suspect that may well be true, and it has me wondering what minimum standards or requirements exist that a manufacturer must meet to be allowed to call their product a "tyre" and then attach further descriptors to it. I can certainly buy tyres marketed with terms like "summer", "winter", "all season" or "cold weather" but are those terms defined anywhere? Because if not, I fear even the collective effort of aduk may not be able to put the world to rights on this debate.

[TripleS]

If the answer is all-season tyres, most of my complaints disappear

Probably not, based on the thought that manufacturers probably provide tyres that are commonly available in a particular territory, that are cheap for them to buy, and that are economical to use.

If anybody then wants enhanced tyre properties for summer use [...] it's not something I, and most drivers, I expect - would want to be bothered with.

I contend that part isn't true. I reckon most people buy the cheapest available at the tyre fitters. Perhaps more discerning people pick tyres that have a long life or a notably low rolling resistance, but both of those would be based on long term rather than short term economy.

That first answer seems to leave us with an unresolved problem. For cars destined primarily for use in the UK, the car makers should be supplying original equipment tyres that are suitable for the (relatively limited) range of conditions that UK drivers have to contend with. If the car makers are not doing that, I would say the buyers have a legitimate grievance, or at least they would have if they were aware of the situation!

With regard to the second part, we clearly disagree, again. I think you would be wrong to believe that many (let alone most) drivers would be happy with a twice yearly changing of tyres to suit the season. No doubt a number of contributors to forums such as this will share your view, but this forum hardly reflects philosophies that are typical of drivers in general. In many respects that is regrettable, but there we are.

I do accept that most drivers will seek to be fairly economical in their tyre buying. I don't know whether I count as a discerning buyer or not, but my priorities have always been reasonable grip first, then long life and quiet running; and low rolling resistance is also appealing - to support my long held aspirations with regard to eco-driving (sorry, Martin). I'm happy to pay a fair price for those qualities, and I'm not interested in more sophisticated performance, especially if it involves greater cost, and nor are many people, I'd wager.

Sorry, guys; I know this is a bit like hard work.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

I can certainly buy tyres marketed with terms like "summer", "winter", "all season" or "cold weather" but are those terms defined anywhere?

I'd think it unlikely that there are UK definitions ... as Vredestein's FAQ puts it "The regulations regarding winter tyres may differ per country." However there are legal definitions for various countries in Europe, and since the tyres are manufactured for use in multiple countries, those should suffice. According the AA pages about driving in Europe Germany, for example, mandates that "Winter tyres (or 'all year' tyres) must bear the mark M&S or the snowflake symbol on the side wall."

[Gareth]

my priorities have always been reasonable grip first, then long life and quiet running; and low rolling resistance is also appealing

When we discussed this not so long ago, you seemed to be saying that summer tyres fitted your requirements and that, although initially being interested in all season tyres, you eventually concluded they were not for you. Considering your more recent comments I would have thought that all season tyres are exactly what you want.

[waremark]

[Germany, for example, mandates that "Winter tyres (or 'all year' tyres) must bear the mark M&S or the snowflake symbol on the side wall."

What difference should I expect between tyres marked M&S and those marked with a snowflake? (I have just ordered possibly the last set of overpriced M&S tyres available in the appropriate size in the UK - I liked the fact that they were M&S simply because the cars instruction manual specified winter tyres which were M&S).

[waremark]

[Germany, for example, mandates that "Winter tyres (or 'all year' tyres) must bear the mark M&S or the snowflake symbol on the side wall."

What difference should I expect between tyres marked M&S and those marked with a snowflake? (I have just ordered possibly the last set of overpriced M&S tyres available in the appropriate size in the UK - I liked the fact that they were M&S simply because the cars instruction manual specified winter tyres which were M&S).

BTW, my general bad weather transport is a Honda CRV which has all season tyres. I have always found it very satisfactory in snow. I look forward to discovering how RWD with M&S compares to 4x4 with all season - if we have some more white stuff after the tyres arrive.

[TripleS]

my priorities have always been reasonable grip first, then long life and quiet running; and low rolling resistance is also appealing

When we discussed this not so long ago, you seemed to be saying that summer tyres fitted your requirements and that, although initially being interested in all season tyres, you eventually concluded they were not for you. Considering your more recent comments I would have thought that all season tyres are exactly what you want.

Oh I'm not averse to changing tack if I find I've been wrong about something.

The probability is that I would manage quite adequately by using summer tyres all year round - in my current situation - but on reflection I now feel a better choice would be all-season tyres, which is what I used to think were standard wear anyhow; and these are what should be provided for the normal car buyer.

The scenario that still bugs me is the notion of people buying cars with tyres that they believe will be suitable for all-season use, and then finding out that they're on 'summer tyres' which will not perform decently in winter conditions and low temperatures. I would regard that as some kind of swindle.

However, on a lighter note I was up Olivers Mount in Scarborough this afternoon, and was amused to see the antics of a bunch of lads up there. Conditions on the ground were a nice mixture of snow and ice - no road surface visible anywhere - and there were small quantities of new snow arriving.

Anyhow, this old Ford Escort motors round a bend towards me with the tailgate open, and towing a sledge with another bod seated upon it. Your intrepid reporter is unable to confirm the nature of the material separating the sledge from the snow and ice, but I can tell you some quite spectacular slip angles were being achieved.

It all looked great fun, and good luck to them.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Gareth]

What difference should I expect between tyres marked M&S and those marked with a snowflake?

Bearing mind that tyres are made for international markets ... I think that some M+S tyres are sometimes aimed more at mud than snow. The snowflake over a triple peak mountain is a Canadian standard to certify tyres as being suitable for driving on snow and ice, so it would probably be good to see that symbol on any tyres you buy for winter driving.

Some winter tyres don't have the Canadian symbol but some all season tyres do, (Vredestein Quatrac 2 & 3 for example). Another point to bear in mind is that one counts as an all season tyre in a climate colder or warmer than our own may be marketed differently here. An example of that is the Nokia WR G2 which appears to be considered a good all season tyre in Canada but is sold as a winter tyre in Europe and the UK.

[NalaGee]

For those of you that are interested in winter driving, here are some comparison
tests between different types of tyres, the video shots give some comparisons on
how they perform.

http://www.tirerack.com/winter/index.jsp

[BlondeBimbo]

OK, does anybody know what class of tyre is fitted on the production line to normal run of the mill cars?

In the UK Summer tyres are standard fitment from new.

It is quite easy to see the difference,

I have just purchased a new car – (Jag XFS) it came with summer tyres – Dunlop SP Sport Max,

If one looks at a radar diagram, the profile is:



To understand this – pick any axes – say wear – and one can see this is rated at circ 5.5/10 – snow is 4/10 compared with 8.5/10 for dry roads.

On my spare winter set of wheels I have just fitted Dunlop SP Winter Sport, these show:



In this case – dry is 8/10 and snow is 8/10 – wear is obviously better with the winters as well.

Now for all season tyres, one gets the following diagram (Dunlop SP – AS)



This is again much better than Summer for snow grip.

NOW BEFORE YOU ALL POINT IT OUT

It is easily seen that the winter tyre is a better all round compared to the above, the reason is not to do with Summer vs Winter vs All Season, but to do with the choice of performance tyres rather than standard – The Jag demands performance tyres, so they are much more expensive and performant – unfortunately in that range there is no AS tyre, a more typical tyre is as below



This is more comparable to the range of AS tyre above.

So of the questions

What tyre is usually fitted?
– Ans Summer

Is an AS tyre poor all the time compared to Summer or Winter
– Ans No – there is more difference by the choice of range and manufacturer than AS vs Summer.

However –

ALL Summer tyres are poorer than equivalent Winter tyres in snow/ice/low temperature conditions

ALL Winter tyres are poorer than equivalent Summer tyres in high temperature conditions

ALL All-Season tyres are poorer than equivalent Winter tyres, and better than equivalent Summer tyres in snow/ice/low temperature conditions

ALL All-Season tyres are poorer than equivalent Summer tyres, and better than equivalent Winter tyres in high temperature conditions

Ultimately though by choosing leading tyre manufacturers’ modern tyres the grip is likely to be better than old versions or “cheep” budget brand tyres, the only way to really tell is to look at radar diagrams for the tyres you are choosing - pneus-online.co.uk usually shows a radar diagram for each tyre type.

I take my choice of tyres quite seriously (I like to drive, and I like to stay on the road in all conditions!) – hence I make my choices carefully – those that just buy whatever is cheep and cheerful from the local budget tyre dealer may find themselves OK, or may find they have no grip whatsoever in certain conditions.

Put it this way; I left after the peak snowfall on Monday from Scotland and travelled to work ~260 miles with no issues, and returned on Thursday – none of my neighbours were able to drive more than a few hundred metres in the same conditions over the whole week.

Now I would like to say/think it is my wonderful driving, skill and expertise beyond all other road users – but I really think it is because I bothered to use decent tyres rather than cheep and cheerful’s



BB

Edited 'cos the images came as links