Duelling lorries

[GJD]

If the speed differential is 1mph you are only losing, roughly, 4 minutes of journey time over 4 hours of driving. Accepting that this is a negligible loss seems to me to be no-brainer.

Depends what you value I suppose. For me, taking an extra 4 minutes on a 4 hour journey would be inconsequential. On the other hand, spending 4 hours behind a slower vehicle I could overtake would be inconceivable.

[MGF]

Another scenario

If the 2nd lane of the motorway is doing 60mph and the 3rd lane is doing 80mph

Is it inconsiderate to move into the 3rd lane to do 70mph and hold people up at 70?

What I try to do is constantly compare how quickly I am catching the vehicle in front with how quickly the traffic in lane 3 is catching me. Sometimes I will drop my speed a little on approach to get the faster traffic passed so I can pull out without inconveniencing others.

[GJD]

Another scenario

If the 2nd lane of the motorway is doing 60mph and the 3rd lane is doing 80mph

Is it inconsiderate to move into the 3rd lane to do 70mph and hold people up at 70?

No. The way I think of it is that if the act of changing lanes causes someone to have to slow, that's a bit rude. On the other hand, if my presence in lane 3 at a lower speed causes someone who catches me up to have to slow, that's normal - if you get the distinction.

of course if I am the one speeding do I have any right to be hacked off?

I don't actually think the speed limit has any relevance to the question, in that if the question was rephrased by taking 10 away from all the numbers so all the speeds are legal, I don't think the answer changes.

[MGF]

If the speed differential is 1mph you are only losing, roughly, 4 minutes of journey time over 4 hours of driving. Accepting that this is a negligible loss seems to me to be no-brainer.

Depends what you value I suppose. For me, taking an extra 4 minutes on a 4 hour journey would be inconsequential. On the other hand, spending 4 hours behind a slower vehicle I could overtake would be inconceivable.

Spending 4 hours at a steady 56 mph is pretty inconceivable to me too. Although you may not have to wait 4 hours. You may just have to wait for a suitable gap. It appears to me that lorry drivers often chuck themselves into a gap in traffic as soon as they are in a position to overtake with little consideration for other drivers.

[MGF]

I don't actually think the speed limit has any relevance to the question, in that if the question was rephrased by taking 10 away from all the numbers so all the speeds are legal, I don't think the answer changes.

It would for me. I would suggest accelerating to 70 mph to match the speed of lane 3 traffic so as not convenience other drivers as an alternative to maybe having to slow a little on approach.

[Slink_Pink]

It appears to me that lorry drivers often chuck themselves into a gap in traffic as soon as they are in a position to overtake with little consideration for other drivers.

I don't think that this only applies to lorry drivers!!

[GJD]

We're not actually asking anyone though. We pull out to overtake and hope the other driver will slow. If he doesn't then the onus is on the overtaking driver to abandon the overtake because it is he who chose the manoeuvre.

I don't think the different levels of inconvenience can be ignored though. If the overtakee doesn't slow, the elephant race is set up. Either driver had the opportunity to avoid the situation - the overtaker by giving up and pulling back in behind, the overtakee by slowing briefly. You could argue that, as both could have done something about it, both are at fault. As the overtakee's opportunity to do something about it involves far less inconvenience to himself, I would argue his fault is far greater.

[MGF]

If you agree the loss in journey time is inconsequential it is difficult to understand how the inconvenience can be significant. Of course the irritation caused might be very significant if, like you, the driver of the faster vehicle simply doesn't want to be behind a vehicle he could overtake- albeit over a period of a few minutes - but I would suggest that reflects a personality issue rather than a driving one.

Personally I don't large vehicles being in front of me as it obstructs my view of the road ahead but I don't expect drivers of those vehicles to let me pass them to solve the problem. I have to deal with it through my own driving.

[Angus]

Yes maybe..but is it any worse than the drivers who stay in the outside lane just in case they ever catch up with the next vehicle on the inside lane (M8 Glasgow to Edinburgh being only 2 lane is very bad for that)
Ivor

But most of those are just not concentrating and will move over when they notice you

Also as a matter of interest, how come all the other cars in the OP were too close together anyway
Ivor

Where did I say that?

The problem wasn't that they pulled out (tho' some of the lane changes were on a par with the "emergency lane change" exercise that I've seen done in the past), but that he's effectively blocked the road for several miles

[Angus]

It appears to me that lorry drivers often chuck themselves into a gap in traffic as soon as they are in a position to overtake with little consideration for other drivers.

Thank you. My point entirely

[GJD]

If you agree the loss in journey time is inconsequential it is difficult to understand how the inconvenience can be significant.

Is that because you regard increased journey time as the only thing can can constitute inconvenience?

Of course the irritation caused might be very significant if, like you, the driver of the faster vehicle simply doesn't want to be behind a vehicle he could overtake- albeit over a period of a few minutes - but I would suggest that reflects a personality issue rather than a driving one.

I'm not sure how you're defining personality vs driving issues, or whether you'd say there was a difference between getting irritated by being stuck behind another vehicle and wanting to not be stuck behind it. If someone were concerned about increased journey time would that be a personality issue rather than a driving one?

Personally I don't large vehicles being in front of me as it obstructs my view of the road ahead but I don't expect drivers of those vehicles to let me pass them to solve the problem. I have to deal with it through my own driving.

And when you've done everything you can - identified the overtaking opportunity, taken it, foot flat down bouncing off the speed limiter? Does it become any more reasonable to expect them to briefly help out for the benefit of those held up behind because you're doing your best and they're the only one with the opportunity to do anything more to help? From the point of view of one of those patiently waiting in the queue, I think it does. In that situation, my feelings of disappointment at witnessing inconsiderate driving would have in mind the overtakee, not the overtaker.

[GJD]

It appears to me that lorry drivers often chuck themselves into a gap in traffic as soon as they are in a position to overtake with little consideration for other drivers.

Thank you. My point entirely

Was that your point? If so, I've been answering a different point.

I see two very different issues - as illustrated by foxtrot_mike's supplementary question in the thread. There's the act of changing lanes, which can be done with or without consideration for drivers in the outer lane. I've not counted, but my gut feeling is that the proportion of lorry drivers who I see doing that inconsiderately is about the same as the proportion of car drivers who I see doing that inconsiderately. Your experience may be different .

But the act of changing lanes is separate from what you do once you're established in the outer lane. It's then that the elephant race you referred to originally is established.

[IVORTHE DRIVER]

Yes maybe..but is it any worse than the drivers who stay in the outside lane just in case they ever catch up with the next vehicle on the inside lane (M8 Glasgow to Edinburgh being only 2 lane is very bad for that)
Ivor

Angus wrote "But most of those are just not concentrating and will move over when they notice you"

Problem there is that there is probably a whole queue of cars that are "not concentrating and will move over when they see you" which means none of them have looked in the mirror for ages!!
Ivor

Also as a matter of interest, how come all the other cars in the OP were too close together anyway
Ivor

Angus wrote "Where did I say that?"

Sorry, you didn't, my pc is refusing to let me review my posts before it posts them
And it still refuses to let me do the quote thing properly, must find a small child to sort it for me
Ivor

[MGF]

If you agree the loss in journey time is inconsequential it is difficult to understand how the inconvenience can be significant.

Is that because you regard increased journey time as the only thing can can constitute inconvenience?

No, but apart from that the only other potential inconvenience you have mentioned is merely not wanting to follow a vehicle you are willing and able to travel faster than, even if it is by 1mph.

...If someone were concerned about increased journey time would that be a personality issue rather than a driving one?

You said the increased journey time is inconsequential hence, effectively, you're not being held up. You just don't want to have to follow a vehicle if you are willing and able to drive faster even if it is by only 1mph - albeit possibly for a long time. Similarly I don't like large vehicles in front of me as I like to have a good view ahead of me even if an overtake is not on. These to me are issues of personality as they have nothing to do with being able to drive safely, considerately and progressively. Consequently, I wouldn't want to try to alter other drivers' behaviour regarding those.

And when you've done everything you can - identified the overtaking opportunity, taken it, foot flat down bouncing off the speed limiter? Does it become any more reasonable to expect them to briefly help out for the benefit of those held up behind because you're doing your best and they're the only one with the opportunity to do anything more to help? From the point of view of one of those patiently waiting in the queue, I think it does. In that situation, my feelings of disappointment at witnessing inconsiderate driving would have in mind the overtakee, not the overtaker.

But I wouldn't attempt the overtake if I didn't have a reasonable speed differential- unless their was no traffic behind.

In practice, I do slow down to assist an overtaker (multilne carriageway) primarily because when they have passed they are likely to leave me with 3 foot of following distance. But also because once they are alongside me I would rather they were not there and suspect they have just exercised bad judgement and the car following them is pushing them along. I am not saying it is not good practice to assist - just that it shouldn't be expected.

I am surprised that lorry drivers don't cooperate with each other regarding this. Maybe the truth is they both get to make their best progress and the only people to suffer are following car drivers. Maybe Rog knows.

[daz6215]

LGV drivers are no different to any other group of drivers, there are good and bad, often time restraint is the culprit for bad driving for any class of vehicle on the road be it cars or LGV, It's amazing how much someone's attitude can change towards others with whom they share the road when they are under pressure because of time, frustration builds and drivers take more risk and disregard what should be their ultimate goal which is that of safety and replace it with the new goal of the time deadline! As a result it is very much like the 'Red Mist' all the driver can focus on is reaching that destination when the sat nav said they would at the start of their journey, everything else including being courteous to there fellow professional work colleagues goes out of the window!