Lincolnshire roads

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Postby SammyTheSnake » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:05 pm


StressedDave wrote:
SammyTheSnake wrote:Many candidates for what MDC means but "Most Dangerous Corner" is the only one that halfway makes sense in the context, but that's only half way. Is there another meaning?


In this context it means 'Master Driver's Course' - Cadence's qualifying course for membership of HPC...


Thanks :)

I'll add that to the "WTF does this TLA mean, AFAIK it's an NFI situation, IYSWIM" thread... :D

Cheers & God bless
Sam "SammyTheSnake" Penny
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Zach 2003-2006 - 1995 Diversion 600
DSA B 2007/03/05 - second go
Ninny 2007-2008 - Focus TDDI
Unnamed 2008- Mk3 1.4 Golf
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Postby SamD » Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:41 pm


Generally I feel limits are fairly easy to comply with but it could be argued another example of road environment and enforcement not working together is the main drag into Swansea off the M4 (forget the road).

Limit changes 30-40-30
Varying downhill gradient
Many cameras
2 lanes but cars regularly park in L1 necessitating regular lane changes in busy traffic and consequently very acute rearward awareness.

I think if I lived there it would be easier but I drove it for the first time in a long time recently at night. It was one of the most challenging drives in terms of limit compliance whilst performing tricky navigation & delivering a safe journey I can remember. Poor design albeit a good test.
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Postby Standard Dave » Mon Nov 13, 2006 4:29 pm


Lincolnshire like North Yorkshire has a very high proportion of road fatalities to resident population compared to other counties.

It also suffers from constant government underfunding of it's road network and Police force compared to less rural areas.

The red routes were the roads with the highest number of fatalities a few years ago which saw the signs mentioned spring up and hundreds of camera van pull ins built on them.
The reason the figures are going up is a few multiple fatal RTC's in january and feburary this year which have the scewed the figures upwards all year.
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Postby Nigel » Mon Nov 13, 2006 11:27 pm


If you work over that way Dvae, or just have a good knowledge of the roads, why all the casualties ?

Apart from my basic raining at RAF Swinderby (which is now closed) I've never had a lot to do with Lincolnshire, seems a strange backward place, but the roads themselves didn't strike me as being any worse than rural roads I drive in other parts of the country.

The only notable difference I picked up on was rater than killing yourself hitting trees if you get it wrong, your more likely to drown in some drainage ditch or other.

The constantly changing speed limits caused me more "problems/concern" than the roads.

I came across this once before, trying to follow the old A38 back on a jolly from Devon, I got fed up with that too, but there was an alternative....the M5.
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Postby Susie » Tue Nov 14, 2006 2:56 pm


Well my name's not Dave :shock: but I feel qualified to answer the first part of your question Nigel :wink: I may live just over the border but use these roads very regularly.

The proportion of high quality roads in Lincolnshire is small for starters. A little bit of A1 down near Stamford, a few bits of D/C and the rest is a mix of old Roman straight roads, joined by narrow, twisty bits. The only motorway is in the very north of the county. There are many B roads with better sightlines than the A roads. Lincolnshire is a heady mix of fenlands, where drainage ditches are sufficiently deep to drown people, and wonderful Wolds, where pockets of cold freeze the moisture and make for some 'interesting' surface changes in winter. The old drovers roads are sheer delight and virtually unused by the majority of drivers ...thankfully.

A lack of ability to drive according to the conditions and vary pace to suit those conditions is a major factor. Non locals will mostly drive according to the posted speed sign regardless of road type, whereas the locals will (sometimes) reduce speed appropriately. The non-local gets frustrated and overtakes without realising there is a slight dip ahead and meets someone head-on.

There are many villages on the NSL rural roads and people don't slow down sufficiently for the raise in levels of probability in mixing with more vulnerable road users.

As said before, many of the crashes are single vehicle, ran-out-of-talent situations, often lack of ability to judge and reduce to a safe speed followed by loss of control on corners that follow a long straight. I have been advised by someone in authority, that the majority of crashes occur at well under the posted limit and it is inappropriate speed for conditions, not speed alone which is the major problem.

You also have (as in the February 14 crash on the A52) foreign drivers going to and from agricultural locations, fully loaded with workers. If the crash had occurred a couple of hundred yards further west, it would have counted against Leicestershire not Lincolnshire.

The A52 changes in character from Boston to say, Bingham several times. In part it is wide, straight and flowing (apart from the odd cross roads which tend to catch out the unwary). It then becomes twisty, much narrower, with adverse cambers and hidden dips. After Grantham, the stretch between the A1 and Muston is particularly tricky. There are several open stretches, where the driver who plans well ahead and scans correctly could actually get an overtake in quite safely and satisfactorily but usually, everyone plays follow-my-leader for around 5 miles, particularly when following either a heavy or a plodder.

They then cross the border into Leicestershire, as a straight and inviting piece of road opens before them. They don't observe the two junctions to the left and a couple of unclassified and mostly unused farm-type roads to the right. There are regular crashes, often fatal.**

On other main routes, there are a great number of large lorries moving produce to the major cities. They travel at around 40 and the queues behind them are legendary. With very few safe overtaking opportunities and a lot of close following traffic, there are few situations for one to overtake safely. It only takes one rather impatient driver to attempt a multiple overtake and be denied a slot into which he could fit quite reasonably if people were driving thoughtfully - to create mayhem.

** I posted somewhere before that it was only a sixth sense that stopped me from becoming a statistic a while back. I was waiting to turn right out of our village on to the A52 eastbound. Traffic from the right was just coming into view from the left-hander. Traffic was non-existent from the left. A second check to the right and I still had plenty of time to turn in front of them but I just felt something was wrong with the 'picture' I'd captured on my first look. I realised that one of the vehicles in that first picture was missing! As there are no turnings, there could only be one place for it to be... on the offside of the road overtaking the group. If I had not had that curiosity, imagination, ability to re-wind a mental video, call it what you will...to work out that there was something not quite right with the situation, I would have turned right - straight into the path of an overtaking vehicle.

S
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Postby Nigel » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:30 pm


Thankyou for the reply Susie.

It would seem from your post that a major road building excersise is needed, I still can't see how these multiple speed limit changes help.
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Postby Big Err » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:32 pm


Excellent summary of what happens on most rural roads around the country, and I suspect you covered the reason why the rural areas of the UK have such a high casualty rate compared to population size.

A quick glance at the 'crash' database here shows the same stories - in rural locations a high number of single vehicle crashes - drivers failure to be aware?, and the collisions frequently occur with overtakes such as the one you mentioned.

However, the widespread implementation of speed limits I doubt will reduce the number of collisions. It may reduce casualties, but folk'll keep crashing.

Eric.
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Postby Big Err » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:34 pm


Nigel wrote:It would seem from your post that a major road building excersise is needed, I still can't see how these multiple speed limit changes help.


I'd rather see better driving than more road building.

Eric
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Postby Nigel » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:40 pm


IF I had to drive up there often....I'd want both

Tedious is a word that doesn't do the roads justice.
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Postby Susie » Tue Nov 14, 2006 3:50 pm


Edited to say, "Beaten to it by BE!"

The last thing I personally would want to see is a major road building exercise!
A major education exercise...YES! Roads are not dangerous. Some people are. Roads don't move. Their 'persona' may change with weather, traffic volumes and time of day but it's up to the driver to learn how to scan, assess risk and be imaginative, thinking what might happen. The local MP suggested straightening all the bends in Lincolnshire. Why? Virtually every straight road will have a bend at the end of it. People will just lengthen the distance in between crashes. Actually, that's wrong, because people will then use the straight bits to overtake inappropriately as well :roll:

We should never abdicate our responsibility to a 'number' on a sign. The speed reduction policy will do nothing more than create a scenario where everyone has stopped thinking and is driving on auto pilot. Even at 40, the closing impact speed will be around 80 and in many cases, that will not be survivable.

S
p.s. I thoroughly enjoy driving in Big Err's part of the world because at the time of year I usually visit, there are few tourists and the majority of locals have learned how to deal with adverse weather conditions, unlike their counterparts south of the border.
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Postby Big Err » Tue Nov 14, 2006 4:25 pm


Susie wrote:p.s. I thoroughly enjoy driving in Big Err's part of the world because at the time of year I usually visit, there are few tourists and the majority of locals have learned how to deal with adverse weather conditions, unlike their counterparts south of the border.


Unfortunately, maybe due to number of drivers, climate change, traffic volumes etc when the weather changes we get similar problems to the ones seen down south. My advice is always if you're not happy driving in the conditions, don't - stay at home or use public transport. The less ditherers or nutters on the road when conditions go bad, the better.

Sorry - going into rant mode - spent too many years as project engineer for road gritting and snow clearing!

Eric.
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Postby Standard Dave » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:01 pm


Susie's Posts about the problems on Lincolnshires roads sum up everything I can think of. The roads in Lincolnshire are not unique but the situation of having virtually no duel carraigeway and no motorway is unique, I have not driven anywhere else where mayor towns are linked only by a twisty A road where journey times double or triple in traffic due to the lack of safe overtaking points.
Due to this B and unclassified roads are used by locals and visitors to make up time and this often leads to the single vehicle collisions mentioned by Susie.

Then there is the August bank holiday (and the rest of the summer to some extent) when many people from out of county decend on the area and drive cars into ditches and motorbikes into the side of lorries and tractors.
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Postby Big Err » Tue Nov 14, 2006 5:11 pm


Standard Dave wrote:I have not driven anywhere else where mayor towns are linked only by a twisty A road where journey times double or triple in traffic due to the lack of safe overtaking points.


Visit Scotland in August.
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Postby MGF » Wed Nov 15, 2006 2:52 pm


Nigel wrote:Apart from my basic raining at RAF Swinderby (which is now closed) I've never had a lot to do with Lincolnshire, seems a strange backward place, but the roads themselves didn't strike me as being any worse than rural roads I drive in other parts of the country.


I used to live in Lincs. and am familiar with the roads you mention. It is perhaps worth mentioning that the County's A roads have some of the worst fatality rates in the country.

And most of the deaths are local hence local people avoiding speed restrictions.
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