Traffic Cops

[zadocbrown]

I can honestly say I've never had the ESP come in on the road, and I'm not known for sparing the horses. All the cars I've driven have been quite happy for me to keep them 'on tip-toe' without any interference.

I'm puzzled as to why people have so much trouble. Motoring journalists seem to have particular issues with the electronics. I can only think that they drive too fast for their ability.........

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

The electronics interfere with their ability to leave interesting skid marks on certain runways

I've found on handling and track days I'm able to have more fun with the traction control switched off though. Never had a car with ESP, so don't know about that.

[jbsportstech]

Ok I will certainly think on that advice dave as I value your opinion and input.

My focus doesnt have esp it was optional on ST170 and I am the 2nd owner so all I disable is the tcs/btsc which is traction control with a understeer control element but no full blown stablilty control. I have driven this car full chat around silverstone without incident. The first car I have spent any real length of time with esp is the passat and I find it cuts in far to early to limit wheel spin. I have got it to activate to bring the car out a understeer/oversteer scenario but I have the experience in current shape volvo s40 as mentioned.

So you think nigels opinion is wrong?

[hanse cronje]

gosh i thought i was on pistonheads for a minute

all the bullshit and plod bashing that goes on

[jont]

I'm puzzled as to why people have so much trouble. Motoring journalists seem to have particular issues with the electronics. I can only think that they drive too fast for their ability.........

I suspect they also intentionally drive in a manner that causes the esp to "interfere" - perhaps as a way of trying to demonstrate their "abilities". I've not had the opportunity to play on an airfield with an ESP equipped car, but I know that when you're doing high speeds, it doesn't take much cack-handedness to get into a situation where ESP would have got involved.

[jbsportstech]

This is wrth a view for a demo of all of the discussed safety features.

[daz6215]

take a look http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wR1SSxpKitE

[firstmk1]

A load of tosh.

[TripleS]

A load of tosh.

....or was it more a case of espousing an approach that others feel to be ill-advised. To be honest I think a bit more caution would be desirable - sorry, James.

I've never knowingly driven a car with ESP, but if the system had never been invented I can't say I'd worry too much - but there again that's me and my minority viewpoints again.

Best wishes all,
Ned L.

[Red Herring]

Think they are trying to copy essex police. Not my cup the front looks ok but it looks like the where flat out of enthusiasm/talent on the back end

If you gave one of these guys a powerful rear drive like new m3 they probably lose the back end as these evos are so sanatised with electronic overlords they take alot of skilll away.

I think you will find that the Essex ANPR Intercept team (as seen on Channel 5!) have a number of different vehicles on their fleet, including BMW 330, Volvo T5, and Mondeo ST220 in addition to the Evo's and WRX's you see on TV. The officers on the team are not assigned specific vehicles but have to change from one to the other on a daily basis, so I think you will find they are reasonably adept at altering driving styles.

With regard to your later comments James about the "standards" of police drivers, in particular your comparison to 17 years olds, I suspect you will find that the officers assigned to drive these cars have had to go through some fairly rigorous driving assessments, looking not only at their skill to control the vehicles but also their mental approach and their ability to make critical decisions under intense pressure. If you think they just throw the keys at any old copper you are much mistaken.

If you want to get into the specifics of vehicle suitability to the role it not always the fastest vehicle that is best. To compare just two vehicles a BMW M3 driven to it's limit is a very fast car, however a police officer cannot afford to take it to it's limit because that would leave no margin for a change in circumstances, or an error. The EVO X, with it's advanced electronics and four wheel drive, is potentially capable of going faster than the BMW, not because is has more power (it has less) but because the envelope in which it can operate is higher, not just in terms of sheer grip but because the safety margins are greater. In short at the same speed in a given circumstance the EVO is safer than the BMW. It is also easier to drive. No apology here, the easier the car is to drive quickly the more effective it is as an intercept car.

I doubt very much James that you will ever have the opportunity to appreciate first hand just what a police officer has to go through during a high speed pursuit. You are however entitled to your opinion as to how it should be done.

[TripleS]

A load of tosh.

....or was it more a case of espousing an approach that others feel to be ill-advised. To be honest I think a bit more caution would be desirable - sorry, James.

I've never knowingly driven a car with ESP, but if the system had never been invented I can't say I'd worry too much - but there again that's me and my minority viewpoints again.

Me either, (so I can be in your minority) but equally if its fitted, I couldn't see the point in turning it off.

No, if I had such a system I expect I would leave it on, but I wouldn't expect to find it doing much.

Best wishes all,
Dave - back to over-confidence?

[waremark]

If you want to get into the specifics of vehicle suitability to the role it not always the fastest vehicle that is best. To compare just two vehicles a BMW M3 driven to it's limit is a very fast car, however a police officer cannot afford to take it to it's limit because that would leave no margin for a change in circumstances, or an error. The EVO X, with it's advanced electronics and four wheel drive, is potentially capable of going faster than the BMW, not because is has more power (it has less) but because the envelope in which it can operate is higher, not just in terms of sheer grip but because the safety margins are greater. In short at the same speed in a given circumstance the EVO is safer than the BMW. It is also easier to drive. No apology here, the easier the car is to drive quickly the more effective it is as an intercept car.

RH, I completely accept the criteria for a suitable police vehicle, but I am a bit doubtful about your specific comparison.

It sounds as though you may have been involved in comparative tests. Is that so? Before the introduction of ESP systems I used to think 4 wheel drive was good for stability and therefore safety. After the introduction of ESP, I discovered that it was far easier to lose control in a 4 wheel drive car without ESP than in a 2 wheel drive car with ESP. I think there is an argument that if you take an Evo to the edge of its enormous range of abilities things will go pear shaped rather suddenly, whereas an M3 even with ESP off will be rather more progressive - and with ESP on should be quite protective.

The one great benefit of 4 wheel drive is improved traction, but at the 300 to 420 bhp of the cars we are talking about this is not a factor other than on icy or snowy roads.

RH, I am seriously interested in your thoughts on this.

JB, I am another who never turns my safety systems off on the road. I consider that Nigel's advice is out of date.

Best wishes, Mark, sometime owner of 3 M3's and an Evo.

[Red Herring]

Hi Waremark,
On reflection I didn't write that particularly well,
The point I was trying to make is that when driving quickly on the road it is critical to remain within a safety parameter to allow for the unexpected, variations in the circumstance (road surface?) and lets face it, errors. A powerful two wheel drive car is going to break traction (and thus induce instability) earlier than a less powerful four wheel drive vehicle which in effect means that the later can actually use more of it's available power than the other. As someone once said, there's not much point having lots of power if you can't put it down to the road and use it.

As said earlier in order to maintain safety manufactures fit ESP and such like. What we found on the BMW M3 is that in anything other than fast dry conditions the car is continually being restricted by the ESP. You need to remember that the majority of police pursuits don't take place on the Motorway, they are 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear action on confined roads and powerful two wheel drive cars just end up living on their ESP, or generating lots of smoke.....A good pursuit car needs a top speed of around 150mph, but the way it gets between 30 and 90 will make all the difference to safety.

[TripleS]

Hi Waremark,
On reflection I didn't write that particularly well,
The point I was trying to make is that when driving quickly on the road it is critical to remain within a safety parameter to allow for the unexpected, variations in the circumstance (road surface?) and lets face it, errors. A powerful two wheel drive car is going to break traction (and thus induce instability) earlier than a less powerful four wheel drive vehicle which in effect means that the later can actually use more of it's available power than the other. As someone once said, there's not much point having lots of power if you can't put it down to the road and use it.

As said earlier in order to maintain safety manufactures fit ESP and such like. What we found on the BMW M3 is that in anything other than fast dry conditions the car is continually being restricted by the ESP. You need to remember that the majority of police pursuits don't take place on the Motorway, they are 1st, 2nd and 3rd gear action on confined roads and powerful two wheel drive cars just end up living on their ESP, or generating lots of smoke.....A good pursuit car needs a top speed of around 150mph, but the way it gets between 30 and 90 will make all the difference to safety.

This is all very interesting - but to me in a peripheral sense only.

RH - may I ask you: are you currently involved with policing matters, or ex. police, or something? You seem to know quite a lot about their affairs.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Red Herring]

I think there are quite a few people on here fairly well connected and in this day and age most information on police matters in very much in the pubic domain. I try to put a fair bit of research into some of my postings....