IAM lobbying

[waremark]

Even so, the IAM started life about ten years before the NSL was introduced, and as such their members were quite free to use high speeds on public roads, as we all were. It was perfectly normal behaviour. Not everybody did it, partly because in those days cars with speed capability above about 90 mph were quite few in number.

Nevertheless there were some fast cars available at fairly modest cost - for example Jaguars with top speeds of 120+ mph - and most of their owners tended to use the performance quite freely, and the motoring community at large accepted this as normal.

Now that the majority of fairly ordinary cars offer that sort of performance, if we had no NSL I think a substantial number of drivers would use high speed irresponsibly.

You will probably immediately think of Germany. But even there it is only on the very best of the Autobahnen that there is no limit.

It is quite unrealistic to think of raising the single carriageway NSL - but it would be great if we could resist the progressive reduction of A road limits to 50.

[nuster100]

....When we train many car enthuiasts, we dont harp on about speed limits because 90% of the time, they wont be obeyed after they have passed the test.

Far more important imo is that a drivers observation and car controll skills are brought up to a level where they can predict most events and safety deal with them.


Jay

Far more important than any of that is assessing &, perhaps, influencing the drivers attitude on the road.

Nigel

That can be wishfull thinking sometimes. Most of the people we are going after in the SW are the young petrolheads, they allready think they are gods gift to driving.

If you can however give them the tools to look deeper into situations as they develop and assess correct speeds for the conditions then it makes a great deal of difference.

Im not going to preach to them about attitude, because to be blunt they wouldent stay in the group which is where they need to be to improve their skills.

But im not naive either, i know doing the RoSPA course wont stop them from doing 120mph+ on the way home from Western Super Mare, but it may just save their life if things start to go wrong on the road infront of them.

Jay

[ExadiNigel]

........If you can however give them the tools to look deeper into situations as they develop and assess correct speeds for the conditions then it makes a great deal of difference.

But if there is no change to their attitude, will they use any of these tools?

Im not going to preach to them about attitude, because to be blunt they wouldent stay in the group which is where they need to be to improve their skills.

Oh I totally agree, preaching isn't the way. If someone started preaching to me I would switch off immediately!

But im not naive either, i know doing the RoSPA course wont stop them from doing 120mph+ on the way home from Western Super Mare, but it may just save their life if things start to go wrong on the road infront of them.

Jay

At the end of the day, the driver has to make choices about what they do when on the road. They must learn to consider the consequences associated with each choice and to accept those that result from their choice.

Nigel

[Big Err]

Agreed. A few emails were sent their way regarding that one, but no replies were forthcoming....

There you are then. Clearly they are not interested in other viewpoints.

They simply want to have their ideas imposed on the rest of us, with no discussion, let alone any attempt to accommodate the wishes of others and arrive at a fair solution overall. You can't work with people like that.

I've had similar lack of responses from other organisations mentioned on this forum. One organisation would constantly hit you with a tirade of abuse if you questioned their argument. "You can't work with people like that."

[TripleS]

Well, you learn something new every day!

Nigel

To what do you refer?

I appreciate I may be asking for trouble here!

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[ExadiNigel]

Well, you learn something new every day!

Nigel

To what do you refer?

The comments about Brake.

I appreciate I may be asking for trouble here!

What should make you think that?

Nigel

[TripleS]

Well, you learn something new every day!

Nigel

To what do you refer?

The comments about Brake.

I appreciate I may be asking for trouble here!

What should make you think that?

Nigel

It's all the fault of that dreadful dth fellow. He's got me a bit jumpy, so now I keep feeling I'm being got at......and I don't think I deserve it.

YMMV, but I'm still averaging better than 50 mpg.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

When we train many car enthuiasts, we dont harp on about speed limits because 90% of the time, they wont be obeyed after they have passed the test.

The decision to put themselves on offer is their own, what you shouldn't be doing is placing yourself in a position where they are able to say you were encouraging them to do so.

I doubt if he's doing that. He's probably working on the basis that they all know what the law expects, and then leaves them to make their own decision in their post training/post test motoring etc. There's no point in expecting anything else.

Incidentally, I do like this "on offer" term. I wonder what it means.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

Even so, the IAM started life about ten years before the NSL was introduced, and as such their members were quite free to use high speeds on public roads, as we all were. It was perfectly normal behaviour. Not everybody did it, partly because in those days cars with speed capability above about 90 mph were quite few in number.

Nevertheless there were some fast cars available at fairly modest cost - for example Jaguars with top speeds of 120+ mph - and most of their owners tended to use the performance quite freely, and the motoring community at large accepted this as normal.

Now that the majority of fairly ordinary cars offer that sort of performance, if we had no NSL I think a substantial number of drivers would use high speed irresponsibly.

You will probably immediately think of Germany. But even there it is only on the very best of the Autobahnen that there is no limit.

It is quite unrealistic to think of raising the single carriageway NSL - but it would be great if we could resist the progressive reduction of A road limits to 50.

I still don't see it like that, and I've disputed this a time or two previously with Von.

We've now had the NSL for above 40 years, and I think most drivers have got used to it - and indeed have not known anything else, in the UK at least. This means that most normal drivers have become content with the lowish speeds; and quite likely most of those who buy high performance cars don't buy them because they want that much performance and intend to make regular use of it. I suspect they buy the cars for the sake of the general style/type of car, and the quality etc. - and maybe a bit of prestige feel, if I dare suggest that. I really don't think the level of enforcement is sufficient to deter people from driving fast if they want to. Another factor is that having become acclimatised to lowish speeds, most drivers would not feel comfortable to suddenly start driving much faster. I think they would find it hard work, taking too much concentration, and they'd soon get tired of it and drop the pace back to the levels they are more accustomed to. There might initially be a few more frights, and even a few more shunts for a brief period, but I reckon things would calm down again fairly soon, and the accident rate may not be greatly worsened beyond that initial period. It might even improve if it sharpened up people's attention to the driving processes, so that'd be a win-win situation.

As a matter of fact I'm not thinking of Germany, as I have no experience of driving in that country, but I have heard that even their limit-free roads are of lower quality than our motorways. For example, it is said that they generally have only two lanes, and that the surfaces are inferior to ours, and their entry/exit slip road layouts are not too good either.

With regard to our single carriageway limit, far from it being great if we keep it at 60 mph, IMHO it would be an outrage if it were to be reduced from that. I do agree that there is no sign of it being increased, but it might as well be for all the good it is doing.

Is anybody aware of any surveys or research to give us a clue as to what might happen to driving speeds on NSL roads if the limits were to be removed? I don't think it would make a lot of difference to drivers' choice of speed, and I might be quite wrong; but I would be interested to know the truth.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[fungus]

I remember reading some information on the effect of raising the speed limit in some American states, on the Safe Speed website. In most cases the accident rate fell. The conclusion was that drivers were concentrating more at the higher speeds alowed. As said earlier, there will always be those that will push it to the extreme.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

[TripleS]

I remember reading some information on the effect of raising the speed limit in some American states, on the Safe Speed website. In most cases the accident rate fell. The conclusion was that drivers were concentrating more at the higher speeds alowed. As said earlier, there will always be those that will push it to the extreme.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

Best known of those appeared to be the State of Montana, where some interpretations of the results did seem to support the idea of raising speed limits, but I can't remember the final outcome.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

I remember reading some information on the effect of raising the speed limit in some American states, on the Safe Speed website. In most cases the accident rate fell. The conclusion was that drivers were concentrating more at the higher speeds alowed. As said earlier, there will always be those that will push it to the extreme.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

Best known of those appeared to be the State of Montana, where some interpretations of the results did seem to support the idea of raising speed limits, but I can't remember the final outcome.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

The authorities did not agree and reintroduced a state wide limit.

[waremark]

........If you can however give them the tools to look deeper into situations as they develop and assess correct speeds for the conditions then it makes a great deal of difference.

But if there is no change to their attitude, will they use any of these tools?

I think yes.

I think advanced training helps drivers to make their own sensible judgements about where it is safe to make good progress and where it is not. So one gets people to slow down where it matters not by emphasising the speed limit, but by getting them to recognise all the hazards they may have to deal with. So as we drive past a row of parked cars, I would say, 'Keeping far enough away not to catch any doors that open, looking out for any children who may come out from between the cars, if oncoming traffic forces us to go close to the parked cars then we need to slow right down to give ourselves time to deal with doors, pedestrians or cars moving.' Talking like this over a series of a few sessions seems to make a real difference.

So I think Roadcraft skills can improve behaviour - but then I only have experience of trying to help people who have reasonably good atitudes in the first place.

[waremark]

As a matter of fact I'm not thinking of Germany, as I have no experience of driving in that country, but I have heard that even their limit-free roads are of lower quality than our motorways. For example, it is said that they generally have only two lanes, and that the surfaces are inferior to ours, and their entry/exit slip road layouts are not too good either.

My limited experience has been that wherever the autobahn reduces in standard from straight and smooth to anything like the standard of our motorways - with bumps, bends or junctions - there is a lower speed limit which is rigidly obeyed.

[TripleS]

I remember reading some information on the effect of raising the speed limit in some American states, on the Safe Speed website. In most cases the accident rate fell. The conclusion was that drivers were concentrating more at the higher speeds alowed. As said earlier, there will always be those that will push it to the extreme.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

Best known of those appeared to be the State of Montana, where some interpretations of the results did seem to support the idea of raising speed limits, but I can't remember the final outcome.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

The authorities did not agree and reintroduced a state wide limit.

....and authorities can be relied upon to do what is sensible? Perhaps you're more inclined to trust them than I am.

I don't recall the details of what happened there, but some interpretations of the results appeared to lend support to the idea of removing (or at least raising) the limits, so there was clearly some doubt.

Best wishes all,
Dave.