Mini roundabout confusion

[ExadiNigel]

.....The main trouble people have with quote on this forum is that this software insists on the author's name being part of the opening tag inside quotation marks - so for me it would be (remove spaces) [ quote="Mr Cholmondeley-Warner" ]

Actually, it doesn't Nick. You can quote without a name being specified. For example, the next bit is simply the word quote (between square brackets) followed by a "/quote" also between square brackets..

quote test

Nigel

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Ah, I must have been thinking of another forum then. Apols.

[HTG]

I guess I've also suffered from being told different things by different people over the years, but I'm pleased to say what has been my current view turns out to be correct, in that I should go around the paint. So here's my conundrum...

Using the wonders of Google Maps again, here's another mini-roundabout:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=arbury+road,+cambridge&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.462703,39.594727&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Arbury+Rd,+Cambridge+CB4,+United+Kingdom&ll=52.228166,0.123762&spn=0.000228,0.000604&t=k&z=21

The road from bottom right to top left in this map is aggressively traffic calmed, since it is a classic rat-run route and it's the main road here, really. This must once have been a T-junction, with the road from the bottom left being the minor road. Most drivers on the main road straight-line this junction at speed, not always within the 30 limit, and particularly so at night. The location is such that there are many boy-racer types in cars with the necessary under-floor neons, big exhaust pipes, wings, spoilers, LEDs, and so on.

The final challenge is that the exit from the minor road, particularly when turning right, is very blind. The paint blob is offset to the left of centre of the main road, clearly to slow the traffic down as it goes round it along the main drag. If you straight-line it and cross the paint, there's no need to slow, and so people don't. However, this offset also means that the hedge on the bottom corner in the picture means you have extremely restricted visibility from the side road to the right, and a fast approaching car is usually invisible until you are so far into the road that he (it's usually he) will broadside you. One might hope that at night, the view of your headlights on the hedge opposite might give your existence away, but that's rather hopeful.

Despite all the planning that one might expect of a Rospa Gold driver (because I'm proud to be one), I once got a massive shock as a boy-racer nearly wiped me out properly as I tried to turn right from the minor road from the bottom left. He skidded to a sudden halt some tens of meters up the road past the roundabout (going bottom right to top left), and I then had the second worry that he might come after me in a fit of road rage, but he didn't. Phew. I appreciate it would have been his fault, but I would have been dead with the impact square on my drivers door, had I not stopped abruptly as I saw the speed of approach of his advancing headlights. Not much consolation. Advanced Driving is (largely) about avoiding getting into collisions caused by other people, but I am still to find a way to enhance my own safety on this junction.

If the rules were followed by most drivers, this would be a sensible road-calming measure. As it is, I see it as a real hazard. I'd rather have traffic-calming measures that actually go along with people's habits and practices than relying on them following the theory. As is often said, "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice..."

In the bigger picture, it's probably easier to go with the flow and alter the junctions you build than trying to educate the ignorant masses because you can't. Once traffic is safe "enough", most people don't care about making it that bit safer. I know that readers here do care, but we know we are the minority. If you want to make a road genuinely safer, you have to make it easier for drivers to do the safer thing than an unsafe thing. This is a good example where the converse is the case, so the danger is raised rather than reduced. Shame, and demoralising, but there you go.

[Octy_Ross]

but I am still to find a way to enhance my own safety on this junction.

have you tried putting your windows down and listening for the neon illuminated project approach?

[fungus]

[quote="HTG"]I guess I've also suffered from being told different things by different people over the years, but I'm pleased to say what has been my current view turns out to be correct, in that I should go around the paint. So here's my conundrum...

Using the wonders of Google Maps again, here's another mini-roundabout:
[url]http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=arbury+road,+cambridge&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.462703,39.594727&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Arbury+Rd,+Cambridge+CB4,+United+Kingdom&ll=52.228166,0.123762&spn=0.000228,0.000604&t=k&z=21[/url]

The road from bottom right to top left in this map is aggressively traffic calmed, since it is a classic rat-run route and it's the main road here, really. This must once have been a T-junction, with the road from the bottom left being the minor road. Most drivers on the main road straight-line this junction at speed, not always within the 30 limit, and particularly so at night. The location is such that there are many boy-racer types in cars with the necessary under-floor neons, big exhaust pipes, wings, spoilers, LEDs, and so on.

The final challenge is that the exit from the minor road, particularly when turning right, is very blind. The paint blob is offset to the left of centre of the main road, clearly to slow the traffic down as it goes round it along the main drag. If you straight-line it and cross the paint, there's no need to slow, and so people don't. However, this offset also means that the hedge on the bottom corner in the picture means you have extremely restricted visibility from the side road to the right, and a fast approaching car is usually invisible until you are so far into the road that he (it's usually he) will broadside you. One might hope that at night, the view of your headlights on the hedge opposite might give your existence away, but that's rather hopeful.

Despite all the planning that one might expect of a Rospa Gold driver (because I'm proud to be one), I once got a massive shock as a boy-racer nearly wiped me out properly as I tried to turn right from the minor road from the bottom left. He skidded to a sudden halt some tens of meters up the road past the roundabout (going bottom right to top left), and I then had the second worry that he might come after me in a fit of road rage, but he didn't. Phew. I appreciate it would have been his fault, but I would have been dead with the impact square on my drivers door, had I not stopped abruptly as I saw the speed of approach of his advancing headlights. Not much consolation. Advanced Driving is (largely) about avoiding getting into collisions caused by other people, but I am still to find a way to enhance my own safety on this junction.

If the rules were followed by most drivers, this would be a sensible road-calming measure. As it is, I see it as a real hazard. I'd rather have traffic-calming measures that actually go along with people's habits and practices than relying on them following the theory. As is often said, "In theory, there's no difference between theory and practice, but in practice..."

In the bigger picture, it's probably easier to go with the flow and alter the junctions you build than trying to educate the ignorant masses because you can't. Once traffic is safe "enough", most people don't care about making it that bit safer. I know that readers here do care, but we know we are the minority. If you want to make a road genuinely safer, you have to make it easier for drivers to do the safer thing than an unsafe thing. This is a good example where the converse is the case, so the danger is raised rather than reduced. Shame, and demoralising, but there you go.[/quote]

Travelling from NW to SE along the main road, is that solid kerb built out into the road at the roundabout?
We have one down here in a village called West Moors, where the kerb is curved out to a point and then back again, more sharply than the one in your example. It does slow traffic down, but many drivers don't signal left when going ahead, first exit. That does not assist oncoming drivers, as it is difficult to determine intention from position and speed, as they are almost pointing at the white painted area and their speed is low. Another mini roundabout locally has white hatched markings instead of the kerb built out. It is much easier to determine an oncoming drivers intention as most ignore the hatchings anyway and you can see from their speed of approach what they are going to do. The visibility at this junction is good anyway.

[GJD]

Using the wonders of Google Maps again, here's another mini-roundabout:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=arbury+road,+cambridge&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=14.462703,39.594727&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Arbury+Rd,+Cambridge+CB4,+United+Kingdom&ll=52.228166,0.123762&spn=0.000228,0.000604&t=k&z=21

I know that one, and the next two further up Arbury Road - out of the top left side of your image. To me, the one you've shown, and particularly the one at the end of St Albans Road are classic examples of awful mini roundabout layouts. I say that because...

The paint blob is offset to the left of centre of the main road, clearly to slow the traffic down as it goes round it along the main drag. If you straight-line it and cross the paint, there's no need to slow, and so people don't.

...but even if you do slow and give yourself the necessary time to check it is clear, the offset is such that it's still easier to go over the wrong side of the paint blob than round the right side. When no other hazards are present I find it impossible to drive those mini roundabouts correctly without feeling that I'm only obeying the rule because it's a rule and the rule is contrary to common sense. That can't be a good thing.

If the rules were followed by most drivers, this would be a sensible road-calming measure

I'm not sure I like the phrase "sensible road-calming measure". It implies some level of acceptance of these abominations . I suppose, if the rules (for everything, not just mini roundabouts, and most importantly rule 126) were followed by most drivers, there would be no need for such things as road-calming measures. I think anyone who designs a road layout that forces you down the awkward or counter-intuitive route to remain legal is, apart from abusing their power, doomed to fail if they hope to make the road safer - your experience (glad it was no worse than that) for example.

[TripleS]

....anyone who designs a road layout that forces you down the awkward or counter-intuitive route to remain legal is....

....lining themselves up for a disappointment.

That's not just me being my natural, awkward self; it is what you will get from most people.

Somewhere between where officials think we should be, and the line taken by normal people of their own free will, there is behaviour that will give a pretty good result, and we should settle for that: and I'm certainly willing to make my contribution to achieving that happy state.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[fungus]

Most of the officials have beards, wear anoraks, don't have a driving licence, and ride bicycles.

[HTG]

but I am still to find a way to enhance my own safety on this junction.

have you tried putting your windows down and listening for the neon illuminated project approach?

I haven't tried it, and I agree, if they have their boot-mounted subwoofer up loud, it will work well. Unfortunately, the hedge dulls the sound as well as obscuring the vision. I might well try this, though. Should have thought of that myself!

Travelling from NW to SE along the main road, is that solid kerb built out into the road at the roundabout?

I'm not sure what it is, fungus. It's not a solid kerb. It's either just white paint, or a gentle white-painted concrete mound the height of a speed bump that you feel yourself driving over, so you may naturally try to avoid it. It's a good point you make that you don't really know which way people are going as they approach. Here, people can take either approach, I think, so the signs are hard to read without an indication.

Yep - road calming measures are another fiery topic altogether. I appreciate I may have touched a sensitive area. There are so many layers of complexity in reading road designs that it's never going to be right all the time. I find this a good example, because the design is such that it makes people wonder what's going on, so slows them down (from some directions) successfully, but from others, it makes a hard junction much worse. I'm just glad it's not my job to do it. I can't imagine I'd have many friends left.

[fungus]

The latest edition of the Highway Code doesn't clarify things. From a novices point of veiw the HC says you MUST drive around the painted area unless your vehicle is large and incapable of passing around it. A novice will probably try to do this even if it is not safe, unless they have been through the situations that it might not be possible with their instructor.

[x-Sonia-x]

Quick question. Is it legal to treat a mini roundabout as you would any normal roundabout. I mean, can you go right the way around it and back down the road you have just driven up??? Twice today I have done this, as where my sister lives you cannot turn right out of her place, you have to turn left and at the end of the round a mini roundabout, go right round, but both times I have done this, the traffic 'presume' I am taking the right turnoff and do not give way, both times I was prepared so avoided a collision. So im bit confused as to whether what im doing is right

[x-Sonia-x]

The second time I did it today, a bus was waiting to come out of right hand turn. I knew he would think i was turning right so kept my speed really slow, and as predicted out he came!! Even though I was going slow enough to stop to let him go first, I did also have a car right up me backside too!! Think maybe safer in future, when its busy to take the right hand turn off and just go down there and find a side road to turn around x

[GJD]

Think maybe safer in future, when its busy to take the right hand turn off and just go down there and find a side road to turn around x

I think you've got the solution right there. If you're unsure, or you think you're going to confuse someone into inadvertantly driving into you, your inner peace (and theirs) is probably best served by not surprising them. If all seems fine, carry on. If not, do something else. That's my approach anyway, or at least it would be - my Volvo has the turning circle of a supertanker (any of you police types on here suffer the same thing with your V70s? Or are they special?) so mini roundabout U-turns are generally off the menu.

Gavin

[ROG]

The second time I did it today, a bus was waiting to come out of right hand turn. I knew he would think i was turning right so kept my speed really slow, and as predicted out he came!! Even though I was going slow enough to stop to let him go first, I did also have a car right up me backside too!! Think maybe safer in future, when its busy to take the right hand turn off and just go down there and find a side road to turn around x

No need to turn right - just control the speed of the vehicle behind earlier.

[TripleS]

The second time I did it today, a bus was waiting to come out of right hand turn. I knew he would think i was turning right so kept my speed really slow, and as predicted out he came!! Even though I was going slow enough to stop to let him go first, I did also have a car right up me backside too!! Think maybe safer in future, when its busy to take the right hand turn off and just go down there and find a side road to turn around x

No need to turn right - just control the speed of the vehicle behind earlier.

Yes, I find that works very well. Even if they are initially following too closely, they soon ease off and drop back and then maintain a larger gap.

Best wishes all,
Dave.