Poor Driving

[Gareth]

I understand the graphs aren't normalised and are based on user review, which means that absolute comparisons shouldn't be made but nevertheless they give an indication about what to expect.

[BlondeBimbo]

I thought they were normalised on pneus and the German tyre review sites, but not on mytyres etc which are just direct feedback, as are the star rating on pneus



BB

[TripleS]

Many thanks, Gareth, for the information conveyed in recent PMs, and to BB for the comprehensive summary above, but if what BB says is right, then I think the car makers are open to considerable criticism if they are fitting 'summer tyres' as standard on new cars.

It's all very well for the enthusiasts to delve into the intricacies of different classes and brands of tyre and make choices to suit their needs, but it seems highly unlikely that the public at large are going to bother with all this, and I don't think they should be expected to do it. I'm not talking about people who just want the cheapest possible tyres without giving the matter any further thought. I'm thinking about those who want decent quality tyres that will give them reasonable grip in the range of conditions normally expected in the UK, which is what I want.

If the car makers were to fit all-season tyres of decent quality, that would be a perfectly respectable policy; but if they are merely providing new car buyers with 'summer tyres' that will suffer a significant reduction in grip and traction on snow and ice, and at temperatures below 7 degrees C. - which isn't an especially low temperature anyhow - IMHO they are presenting such buyers with a potentially dangerous situation. This means it is quite probable that many of them will be having accidents that should not be occurring, and even if they don't have accidents, they might be contributing to the chaos we see every time we get a relatively light covering of snow. It seems ridiculous to me that despite all the supposed 'progress' in recent years, things have actually degenerated to a situation where, in the main, we're coping less well with winter conditions than we used to do 40 or 50 years ago. Driver training and ability might play a part in this, but I doubt if that's the full explanation.

Like it or not, the great mass of car users do not study these matters like members of this forum, so not only will they be largely unaware of the added difficulties they'll face in their winter driving, they are also unlikely to have the car handling sensitivity and skill level in their driving to minimise the risks by taking extra care to compensate for the now apparent shortcomings in their tyres. The first they will know about this is when they have an accident, and then they might eventually learn that this was partly caused by an unexpected reduction the behavioural qualities of their tyres. In my view they would then be entitled to feel they've been cheated and misled by a combination of the tyre industry and the car makers.

Quite possibly I'm expressing a minority viewpoint here, but quite frankly I think this business stinks.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[GJD]

It's all very well for the enthusiasts to delve into the intricacies of different classes and brands of tyre and make choices to suit their needs, but it seems highly unlikely that the public at large are going to bother with all this, and I don't think they should be expected to do it. I'm not talking about people who just want the cheapest possible tyres without giving the matter any further thought. I'm thinking about those who want decent quality tyres that will give them reasonable grip in the range of conditions normally expected in the UK, which is what I want.

I have some sympathy for your sentiment Dave, but one thing occurs: your grievance seems to be the possibility of manufacturers deciding, for whatever reason, to put summer tyres on the cars they sell. But the only tyres the manufacturer chooses are the first ones fitted, when the car is new. Thereafter, when tyres wear out, the owner buys some more, and I suspect the vast majority of vehicles on the road are not still on their original tyres. So apart from the first tyres fitted, owners who just want the cheapest possible tyres without any further thought have ample opportunity to fulfil that desire. And owners who want decent quality tyres that give them reasonable grip in the normal range of UK conditions can have that. And ditto for any other owner with any other tyre preference you can think of. Is the problem perhaps not as big as you fear?

[BlondeBimbo]

Dave, whilst I agree to an extent with your sentiments, it isn’t the manufactures’ responsibility to police appropriate choices by the buying public.

Ultimately they have to sell what people will buy, and people (typical Joes) will not do this sensibly – after all if we purchased cars on the basis of UK weather no one would by a soft-top!

People buy on the dream of a good summer’s day!

My last three cars were audis – the second came with 235 wide tyres, and I put that through some punishment – the tyres were more than adequate, never putting a wheel wrong in the two years of ownership, but when I replaced it with an identical model the standard tyres were 245 wide – Why?

The answer was remarkably simple – it looks more sporty and they sell more against less sporty looking models!

Yet even by doing this the tyres are less appropriate for snow etc etc.

I don’t like leather seats – cold in winter too hot in summer – yet buy a sporty or premium car and it has to have leather or the resale value it hit – the perception is leather = good.

I believe it is up to ROSPA, IAM and others to promote road safety across the board which includes campaigning for changes such as making it prohibitive to use winter tyres in peak summer months (June - August), and prohibited to use summer tyres in peak winter months (Nov - Feb).

The driver has the choice - use all season tyres the whole year, or change over between Summer and Winter tyres.

Manufacturers would have to give people a choice on purchase – do you want all season on ones you have to change.

Which way would the average Joe go?

Simples!

[GJD]

I believe it is up to ROSPA, IAM and others to promote road safety across the board which includes campaigning for changes such as making it prohibitive to use winter tyres in peak summer months (June - August), and prohibited to use summer tyres in peak winter months (Nov - Feb).

The driver has the choice - use all season tyres the whole year, or change over between Summer and Winter tyres.

I'm quite happy with my current set of choices thank you very much.

[zadocbrown]

All the evidence is that people are indeed getting wise to winter tyres - in fact they're practically sold out in the UK from what I gather. Not much point making them compulsory if there aren't enough to go round.

I won't be getting winter tyres this year for the simple reason that I will be doing very little driving in conditions which merit them. I would not be impressed at having to buy them just for the sake of it.

What we need is a couple more harsh winters, education and improved supply. A few more nights on a frosty hard shoulder and people will see the light...

[TripleS]

GJD and BB - thank you for having some patience with me.

Yes, obviously the car maker can only control what is fitted to the car when it is new, but given the tyre choice now available they should be all-season tyres because the vast majority of car buyers probably know nothing about this summer tyre/winter tyre business. In a country like the UK, where weather conditions are not really extreme for sustained periods, all -season tyres would be fine for most drivers. It is quite possible that drivers in some other countries will encounter much wider variations in driving conditions through the year, and they may need to use different tyres according to the season; but that doesn't apply here.

Incidentally, BB, my first car was a 1960 Austin-Healey Sprite, and despite the fact that it never went outside the UK, I was perfectly happy with its soft top arrangement - and in fact I travelled around topless quite a lot in it: the car, that is, not me. Having said that, our honeymoon in Lakeland in June 1963 was a scorcher, and I did actually drive topless some days: me, that is, as well as the car.

You must forgive me; I'm a bit aged and set in my ways, and I'm simply not convinced that all that is done in the name of progress is, in fact, that. I think there are some bad judgements being made, and they are not benefitting the normal car buyer. The enthusiasts will consider and evaluate the various options and find what they want, and they'll be happy, hopefully. Most car buyers are not so knowledgeable, and IMHO they are being taken for a (potentially dangerous) ride - without knowing it. I don't think that is an acceptable situation, and it could be avoided, but it needs pressure to be brought to bear. I hope it will be: the problem could be easily overcome.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

Dave, were tyres really more suitable when you were a lad? How well did people get around in the snow in ordinary cars in those days? I remember that in the winter of ??62?? my father borrowed a Land Rover so that he could take us to school. He always carried heavy weights in the boot in bad weather, and I have memories of my mother bouncing in the boot (something I had my wife do, successfully, on one occasion).

I think that summer tyres only perform badly on snow and ice. Tonight it was minus 4, and in spite of the cold I had very good braking performance (the easiest way to test grip) in my summer tyre shod car. Grip may be better with winter tyres when the temperature is low, but that is not to say that grip from summer tyres is bad even in those conditions.

You cannot blame the manufacturers for specifying tyres which optimise performance in normal conditions - those are the conditions in which cars are generally compared not only by buyers but particularly by Clarkson and the like. It is not unreasonable for the car makers to assume that buyers who live in places where there is lots of snow will obtain suitable tyres (most manufacturers include a spec for winter tyres in the handbook). But perhaps the UK importers should be a bit clearer in their marketing material and price lists, and should offer all season tyres as a listed option - if we have many more harsh winters I expect you are right that that would become a fairly popular option.

[Gareth]

Dave, were tyres really more suitable when you were a lad? How well did people get around in the snow in ordinary cars in those days? I remember that in the winter of ??62?? my father borrowed a Land Rover so that he could take us to school.

I'm too young to remember that far back, but of the winters I do remember, I think people managed to get around a little better on fresh snow than they do these days. I think this was especially so after the introduction of front wheel drive. I imagine it was down to much lighter cars and narrower tyres with higher profiles, and in the case of fwd cars, extra weight over the driven wheels -- I remember car articles in the press discussing the benefits of fwd in wintery conditions.

I'm not sure things were so rosy when it came to ice, though, but the surface is (was) normally rougher than an ice-rink so there is often grip to be had. I remember driving a (MkV) Cortina 1600L up a hill, about 25 years ago, to the house I was living in and taking half an hour to cover a relatively short distance. I was only doing it for fun as there was an alternative route, but it was a great challenge. The only way to make progress was to find some crunchy surface, and at times that meant using a little bit of kerb or footpath to get purchase. Tyres were 165SR13 so much narrower than those on most cars today.

I think that summer tyres only perform badly on snow and ice. Tonight it was minus 4, and in spite of the cold I had very good braking performance (the easiest way to test grip) in my summer tyre shod car.

I wonder if it might have been the car and/or the driver that was performing well Last night in similar temperatures on cleared roads I found most cars were pussy-footing around, and I had to repeatedly remind myself that it would be a reflection on the lack of grip and confidence they were experiencing.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Some facts about average Joes:

1. They like to be seen to be doing well. This means buying sporty looking and sometimes highly performant cars, even if they have had no training to drive them well. These cars have large wheels, for which they need low profile tyres. The wider, the more fashionable.
2. They watch Top Gear. Top Gear tests cars by powersliding them round an airfield. That becomes Average Joe's idea of the conditions in which their car should perform well.
3. They like to seem intelligent, and even the Average Joe can't fail to see that their cars don't do so well on snow and ice these days.
4. Winter tyres are becoming more and more popular. We have to conclude that some Average Joes are waking up to their potential. eBay is full of people selling spare sets of wheels, and many of them make reference to their having been purchased as winter wheels. Likewise most online sellers have just about sold out of them this year.

All tyres are a compromise of some sort. If you wanted fantastic grip on dry roads, you'd make tyres with a super soft compound, rich in natural rubber. They'd wear out in spectacularly short times. Average Joe wouldn't buy those, yet they are available to the enthusiast as track tyres - Toyo R888, Pirelli P-Zero Corsa, etc...

If you want tyres with great grip on snow and ice, again, you make them of soft rubber, but with lots of surface hugging grooves and sipes, to clear the water from the surface, and keep their elasticity and ability to conform to the surface even in low temperatures. Typically they wear out faster than the equivalent summer tyre. Average Joe isn't very convinced about those either, but see above.

So ... tyre manufacturers come up with a compromise that performs well in the majority of conditions, but tyres for different markets may be different. In the UK, they are typically tyres with a good life (UK buyers are very price-conscious), good dry road performance, adequate wet weather grip, but not great in snow and ice, because those are infrequent visitors to our isles over the last 50 years or so. Recently we've had more of them, so people are questioning that choice, and looking for a slightly different radar graph.

[GJD]

Grip may be better with winter tyres when the temperature is low, but that is not to say that grip from summer tyres is bad even in those conditions.

An important point, succinctly put.

[TripleS]

OK, thanks to Mark, Gareth and Nick for general thoughts and helpful comments.

Having yet again returned to the subject of tyres, we perhaps ought to get back to the actual thread subject, i.e. poor driving, because this also has a considerable bearing on how well we cope in difficult conditions.

Obviously it would not be sensible for me to claim that tyres were more suitable when, in the dim and distant past, I was a lad, so I won't claim that. As for how well did we get around in the snow of the early 1960s - which is really when I started getting to grips with it - again I'm dependent on my memory, and it's a subjective matter anyhow. What I do feel is true is that in those days people tended to buckle down and get on with things in a simple practical fashion, whereas now the simple and solid practical approach seems to have taken a back seat in favour of a more frivolous and style/fashion orientated mentality. For example, we are now in an era of wide wheels and low profile tyres which, as I understand it, perform less well in winter conditions than do the old narrower and taller tyres used hitherto.

No doubt modern tyres are considerably better in general terms than they were when I started driving in the late 1950s, but even when technical progress is being made there are usually compromises involved and a suitable balance point has to be identified. My concern is that when it comes to tyres and their suitability for a range of conditions, the balance point that has been chosen is not the best one. Initially I was blaming the tyre industry for this situation, but as we’ve discussed this subject I’m now more inclined to blame the car makers for not providing new car buyers with the right sort of tyres. It looks to be they who have adopted a dubious policy from the viewpoint of the ordinary car buyer, at least as far as UK based buyers are concerned.

Mark – your reported experience of summer tyres in the snow is interesting, and I must say I also am getting around reasonably well on my less than optimally shod wheels, at least based on what I’ve experienced so far. No doubt driving would be easier on more specialised rubber, but I can’t say I’ve been having undue difficulty. If we start getting more prolonged spells of severe winter weather I may need to reconsider.

I certainly think this subject should be receiving more publicity, so that car buyers are made aware that if their new car has ‘summer tyres’ they are no longer being provided with tyres that are geared to giving decent all-round performance in the normal range of UK weather conditions. This shouldn’t happen, but if it does they need to be aware of it. Your suggestion of tyre choice being a listed option, and having potential buyers’ attention drawn to it would be a good step in the right direction.

Gareth’s reference to the 165SR13 tyres on the Cortina reminds me of the tyres on my Austin-Healey Sprite, although they were an even smaller section size – 5.20 x 13 Dunlop ‘Gold Seal’ which were cross-ply construction, were original equipment. When I needed replacements I fitted the rear wheels with Firestone M & S, and they seemed to bite into the snow much better, which is what I wanted. That was before we got into all the present day complexities of tyre compounds; a good chunky tread pattern was the key item of interest.

I can understand what Nick says about people wanting to be seen to be doing well, and their buying habits being influenced accordingly. We are currently in an era where style and image count for quite a lot to many people, but this might change in the light of more stringent financial circumstances. Perhaps it is too early to be sure to what extent drivers as a whole, as opposed to the ‘Top Gear’ viewing sector – which itself might be quite substantial - will go along with this ‘winter tyre’ business. I’m doubtful about it being generally accepted, but I might be wrong.

In the meantime, ‘all-season’ tyres should be the norm for the UK, and the ‘summer tyre’ and ‘winter tyre’ choices should be offered as alternatives, with buyers being made aware of these other possibilities and making their own choices on an informed and considered basis according to their motoring needs.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[TripleS]

A couple of posters on PistonHeads have just offered these comments:

1st bod says:
"Maybe an easier way to stop people getting stuck is to ban summer tyres instead."

2nd bod says:
"Part of the problem is that when your average motorist takes their car in, for what ever reason, & are told they need two new tyres they are not told of their options. These days many of the auto industry tyre suppliers will automatically send a summer tyre of whatever size unless implicitly asked for something specific, what's more worrying is that those summer tyres are increasingly the V tread pattern which are next to useless on snow or ice.

Maybe if people were informed of their choices & told that they could buy an all season, or at least a cross tread patterned tyre, which would be safer for them in winter for the same price then maybe we would see a decline in the V tread summer tyres & summer tyres in general unless someone explicitly asks for them."

Seems to make sense to me. The only thing I'd want to say is that summer tyres need not be banned, but users must be made aware that they may experience more difficulty on them in winter conditions.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[daz6215]

piece on here at about 6.50 about winter tyres the 04/12 programme


http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qjnv