Do driving instructors drive like learners?

[ROG]

I see it all the time in others. Saying what they think you want to hear, rather than what they actually believe.

I tend to go on what they actually do as anyone can talk the talk but its the walk the walk which ultimately counts

[michael769]

The area that the stereotypical young male driver is poorly equipped is attitude stemming from the beliefs/values held.

I agree. However a tutor that expresses a speed/progress is bad - eco is king attitude combined with a "my way is the only way" closed mind attitude simply has nothing to offer that someone in that group can relate to. Which means, of course that any opportunity to influence beliefs and values is lost even before the process begins.

n & b) are rather more 'progressive' in promoting change to deal with those limitations, than the so called 'advanced driving' organisations.

All of which will be for naught if they do not also address attitudinal issues amongst instructors too. I wonder how many of the bulk of instructors out there would think in terms of their pupils values and beliefs and be willing to adapt their approach (possibly out with their core comfort zone) accordingly?

It does concern me to see attempts to draw comparisons between learner instruction and AD. The two have very different goals and objectives, and very different audiences. But it is concerning that professional tutors do not have full awareness of both as without that they are severely limiting their training "toolkit".

I tend to go on what they actually do as anyone can talk the talk but its the walk the walk which ultimately counts

While this can weed out those whose competence is too low for them to be able to put on an act (as often happens in standard driving tests). Someone who does have a sufficient level of competence can easily put on a good show either for a DSA or AD examiner. But that show cannot guarantee that they will continue to drive in that way post test if they do not by into the message.

Testing attitude and beliefs is formidably difficult. But where no effort is made to recognise the potential for a different belief system - and to relate to them at all, the difficulty is compounded. AD has the advantage that most who come to us have a belief system that makes them receptive to much of the message making the relationship easier. For learners who are compelled to get involved, often effectively against their will if they want to be allowed to drive, the compatible belief system does not exist. This makes the ADI's job considerably more difficult - and the need for openness and flexibility much greater,

[7db]

People can display what they want you to see. In a telling environment that is even easier to do. To find out what people 'really' believe, what they truly 'value' & therefore what they'll actually do when away from you, then you have to create an environment that is not judgemental, get them to open up to you & ask rather than tell.

So kinda the opposite of current policing objectives of conveying the idea that one is always being watched on the road?

[vonhosen]

The area that the stereotypical young male driver is poorly equipped is attitude stemming from the beliefs/values held.

I agree. However a tutor that expresses a speed/progress is bad - eco is king attitude combined with a "my way is the only way" closed mind attitude simply has nothing to offer that someone in that group can relate to. Which means, of course that any opportunity to influence beliefs and values is lost even before the process begins.

I agree, I'm not suggesting a tutor should go that route. The contrary in fact.

n & b) are rather more 'progressive' in promoting change to deal with those limitations, than the so called 'advanced driving' organisations.

All of which will be for naught if they do not also address attitudinal issues amongst instructors too. I wonder how many of the bulk of instructors out there would think in terms of their pupils values and beliefs and be willing to adapt their approach (possibly out with their core comfort zone) accordingly?

It does concern me to see attempts to draw comparisons between learner instruction and AD. The two have very different goals and objectives, and very different audiences. But it is concerning that professional tutors do not have full awareness of both as without that they are severely limiting their training "toolkit".

Of course training the trainer is important.

I tend to go on what they actually do as anyone can talk the talk but its the walk the walk which ultimately counts

While this can weed out those whose competence is too low for them to be able to put on an act (as often happens in standard driving tests). Someone who does have a sufficient level of competence can easily put on a good show either for a DSA or AD examiner. But that show cannot guarantee that they will continue to drive in that way post test if they do not by into the message.

Testing attitude and beliefs is formidably difficult. But where no effort is made to recognise the potential for a different belief system - and to relate to them at all, the difficulty is compounded. AD has the advantage that most who come to us have a belief system that makes them receptive to much of the message making the relationship easier. For learners who are compelled to get involved, often effectively against their will if they want to be allowed to drive, the compatible belief system does not exist. This makes the ADI's job considerably more difficult - and the need for openness and flexibility much greater,

I'm sure a lot go to AD to get the badge too & alter their behaviour merely (& only as long as is needed) to get it.

[vonhosen]

People can display what they want you to see. In a telling environment that is even easier to do. To find out what people 'really' believe, what they truly 'value' & therefore what they'll actually do when away from you, then you have to create an environment that is not judgemental, get them to open up to you & ask rather than tell.

So kinda the opposite of current policing objectives of conveying the idea that one is always being watched on the road?

Indeed. The law isn't about education though, I've never claimed it is.

I see it all the time in others. Saying what they think you want to hear, rather than what they actually believe.

I tend to go on what they actually do as anyone can talk the talk but its the walk the walk which ultimately counts

As 7db is alluding to, watch drivers speed choice on the motorway & watch it change when they see a marked Police car doing 60mph in lane 1. Just observing behaviour in an uneven power balance is not a good indicator of determining beliefs/values from actions displayed.

[Horse]

Please will you tell us more about DSA initiatives to address questions of attitude?

Modernising training etc.
http://www.selkentadi.co.uk/wp-content/ ... ndoc-1.pdf

. . . I am left wondering both how strong the evidence is for the success rate of the 'Client Centred Learning' approach, and also how the mass of ADI's will be enabled to deliver this style of teaching effectively.

Evidence? Current evidence I have no idea about, but there is a DSA trial of CCL/coaching underway, being conducted by TRL.

I am also entirely unclear what specific steps the DSA proposes which will do more than previously to create appropriate attitudes to risk and to other road users - that was what we were talking about here, and the topic was hardly addressed in the linked report.

Perhaps you've missed the point : CCL is partly about addressing the learner's attitudes, rather than simply a 'do this to pass the test' approach. The open, questioning, approach allows the underlying attitudes to be brought out and discussed.

That's not to say that coaching is a 'magic bullet' which will automatically improve everything it touches like a training version of King Midas, but - hopefully - it will help.

As far as the current mass of ADIs are concerned, well that's an interesting point. If the figures in that report are correct and only 10-12% of ADIs are signed up for CPD . . .

In terms of targetting younger drivers, DSA is making good use of Youtube and (IIRC) Facebook.

[martine]

Who said I failed? (Oh - just realised - driving fault not dangerous fault )

Ahh sorry - yes I assumed DF was dangerous - congratulation in that case!

[daz6215]

Out of the ADI's on here, myself being one, how many actually do it as a job i.e. driver training of any kind for monies worth every day, for the one's who don't, what was your reason to train as an ADI? What is your goal?

[daz6215]

It does concern me to see attempts to draw comparisons between learner instruction and AD. The two have very different goals and objectives,

They shouldn't,the objective of both on a personal note should be to arrive at your destination in safety! but I agree that it's not a commonly held goal of many learning to drive or their parents either. If your own personal safety isn't your top priority or that of your loved one then there surely is something wrong with that belief.

[7db]

Indeed. The law isn't about education though, I've never claimed it is.

Indeed, and I use policing with a small p in the broadest sense to refer to all enforcement of regulation, not just work done by the Police Service.

[GJD]

I'm sure a lot go to AD to get the badge too & alter their behaviour merely (& only as long as is needed) to get it.

In both cases (learner and AD) there is a badge to be awarded, based on a test of how you drive. Given that, it seems inevitable that, both for learners and AD, people whose only goal is the badge will only be interested in driving how the test says they should drive and not interested in thinking about the why.

For all those people who would be interested in the why, if you only tell them the how then you're doing them a disservice. Is it your suggestion that that disservice is more prevalent amongst IAM/Rospa AD than it is amongst ADIs with learners?

[GJD]

If your own personal safety isn't your top priority or that of your loved one then there surely is something wrong with that belief.

You might believe that there's something wrong with that belief. The person who holds that belief may disagree with you. Or something like that...

[vonhosen]

I'm sure a lot go to AD to get the badge too & alter their behaviour merely (& only as long as is needed) to get it.

In both cases (learner and AD) there is a badge to be awarded, based on a test of how you drive. Given that, it seems inevitable that, both for learners and AD, people whose only goal is the badge will only be interested in driving how the test says they should drive and not interested in thinking about the why.

By not telling them 'how' you can make them work harder on examining their values/beliefs & how that may affect their ability to secure the outcome they desire.

For all those people who would be interested in the why, if you only tell them the how then you're doing them a disservice. Is it your suggestion that that disservice is more prevalent amongst IAM/Rospa AD than it is amongst ADIs with learners?

No that's not my suggestion. I'm saying that it appears to me that recognition of it & therefore the organisational change in order to address it, is more progressive in those who hold the reigns at the DSA than those who hold the reigns of AD organisations.

[daz6215]

If your own personal safety isn't your top priority or that of your loved one then there surely is something wrong with that belief.

You might believe that there's something wrong with that belief. The person who holds that belief may disagree with you. Or something like that...

Out of the many courses that I have facilitated over the years, when Iv'e asked the question to full licence holders what should be your ultimate goal, I have never had 1that would say to my face at least (can of worms) that it isn't! But I am open to suggestions that is of more importance!

[vonhosen]

If your own personal safety isn't your top priority or that of your loved one then there surely is something wrong with that belief.

You might believe that there's something wrong with that belief. The person who holds that belief may disagree with you. Or something like that...

Out of the many courses that I have facilitated over the years, when Iv'e asked the question to full licence holders what should be your ultimate goal, I have never had 1that would say to my face at least (can of worms) that it isn't! But I am open to suggestions that is of more importance!

If your 'top priority' is your personal safety then there are probably safer ways to travel than driving a car to your destination.