IAM lobbying

[waremark]

With regard to our single carriageway limit, far from it being great if we keep it at 60 mph, IMHO it would be an outrage if it were to be reduced from that.

In many southern counties it has effectively been reduced to 50 mph. It would not be that big a step to make this official and nationwide.

[nuster100]

........If you can however give them the tools to look deeper into situations as they develop and assess correct speeds for the conditions then it makes a great deal of difference.

But if there is no change to their attitude, will they use any of these tools?

I think yes.

I think advanced training helps drivers to make their own sensible judgements about where it is safe to make good progress and where it is not. So one gets people to slow down where it matters not by emphasising the speed limit, but by getting them to recognise all the hazards they may have to deal with. So as we drive past a row of parked cars, I would say, 'Keeping far enough away not to catch any doors that open, looking out for any children who may come out from between the cars, if oncoming traffic forces us to go close to the parked cars then we need to slow right down to give ourselves time to deal with doors, pedestrians or cars moving.' Talking like this over a series of a few sessions seems to make a real difference.

So I think Roadcraft skills can improve behaviour - but then I only have experience of trying to help people who have reasonably good atitudes in the first place.

^^^ Thats what I was trying to say, but soo much better put, LOL

You dont need to focus on the speed limits because in built up areas, the hazzard density should bring them below that anyway.

Jay

[waremark]

I really don't think the level of enforcement is sufficient to deter people from driving fast if they want to. Another factor is that having become acclimatised to lowish speeds, most drivers would not feel comfortable to suddenly start driving much faster. I think they would find it hard work, taking too much concentration, and they'd soon get tired of it and drop the pace back to the levels they are more accustomed to. There might initially be a few more frights, and even a few more shunts for a brief period, but I reckon things would calm down again fairly soon, and the accident rate may not be greatly worsened beyond that initial period. It might even improve if it sharpened up people's attention to the driving processes, so that'd be a win-win situation.

Dave is incredibly optimistic - also unrealistic to suggest that 'the accident rate may not be greatly worsened' would be an acceptable proposition in the modern era.

When I was a male teenager I drove as fast as my car would let me. I am delighted that my sons are restrained from doing so in modern much faster cars (forget high performance cars, a 1.2 litre hatch is capable of over 100) by the threat of going back to being a learner if they get caught over the limit twice in their first two years, and thereafter the continuing threat that driving will become even more unaffordable if they get points on their licenses.

Personally, I would drive much faster in many situations if there was no NSL - though I would argue that I would do so without an unreasonable level of danger. Who here would not drive much faster if there was no NSL?

[ExadiNigel]

....Who here would not drive much faster if there was no NSL?

I probably would at certain times of the day.

Nigel

[markc1290]

I would too on open roads with good visibility, but I dont think I would change my speeds in built up areas, too many things going on!

[nuster100]

Who here would not drive much faster if there was no NSL?

Tbh, I dont think it would make much difference to the speed I drive at.


Then again, alot of my driving is done on country roads where your speed tends to be limited by the road, not by the number on a sign.

Incidentially, does anyone here drive country roads sometimes without looking at the speeedo? I found it an intresting excersise, to drive to the limit point etc and see how that compares to when you are clock watching. (obv whilst keeping with the law)

Jay

[fungus]

I would if conditions were favourable.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer

[waremark]

I would too on open roads with good visibility, but I dont think I would change my speeds in built up areas, too many things going on!

The NSL does not apply in built up areas, the question relates mainly to main roads and motorways.

[Red Herring]

I would too on open roads with good visibility, but I dont think I would change my speeds in built up areas, too many things going on!

The NSL does not apply in built up areas, the question relates mainly to main roads and motorways.

I think I can pretty honestly say that on NSL roads I hardly pay heed at all to the readings on the speedometer. I am perhaps fortunate to live in an area that has few speed cameras on NSL roads so they rarely impact on my speed.

[jont]

I see 2 major different areas if NSL were to be abolished.
1) Motorway/DC. Most drivers already drive at or above the limit on these roads. With a higher/non-existent limit I imagine many people will travel significantly faster than they currently do - perhaps up to vmax of their car. Large speed differentials and inadequate observation may well lead to an increase in accidents. There is also a significant increase in fuel consumption as speeds go up.
2) A/B/C roads. Already a lot of drivers don't make use of NSL. There will be some who travel faster on these roads, but I don't see as big a change as on M'way/DC.

As others have said, for roads in 2) above, I don't spend a lot of time looking at my speedo. If NSL were abolished, I'm sure my speeds probably would rise - particularly in sections with excellent sight lines (at the moment for instance a parked van at the end of a long straight might make me wary of a conscious decision to speed).

For 1) I doubt my behaviour will change much, but I tend to avoid those type of roads unless I have to (and I don't drive for work).

Jon

[waremark]

Back in the 50's my father apparently used to test out the top speed of his 140 mph cars on roads where now we are happy to drive at 60 (more or less). And it was one of his good friends who was partly responsible for introduction of the NSL when he was on the front page of the papers for testing an AC Cobra ahead of Le Mans on the M1 at 180.

Back in those days few people could afford cars which were comfortable over 70. Now every youngster has a car capable of over 100 - and they still take more or less the same distance to stop as they did back then.

[michael769]

- and they still take more or less the same distance to stop as they did back then.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Modern disc brakes are considerably better (are there any mainstream cars that do not have disc barkes all round these days? My last 3 all had ventilated discs at the front too) than the drum brakes all round that were routine for mainstream cars right up until the early/mid '80s. Improvements in suspension and tyres have also contributed to reduced stopping distances.

The only things that have not changed are drivers reaction times (and the Highway Codes badly out of date braking distances).

[jont]

- and they still take more or less the same distance to stop as they did back then.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. Modern disc brakes are considerably better (are there any mainstream cars that do not have disc barkes all round these days? My last 3 all had ventilated discs at the front too) than the drum brakes all round that were routine for mainstream cars right up until the early/mid '80s. Improvements in suspension and tyres have also contributed to reduced stopping distances.

I thought it depended very much on the car. A sports car can stop very quickly indeed, but I'm not convinced a typical SUV/4x4 will have much improved stopping distances. (I'm sure we've discussed this before and TopGear et al have done comparative tests against older vehicles).

I'd also be concerned that if anything reaction times are longer (hasn't StressedDave alluded to this?) - there are so many distractions available in modern cars that I suspect some motorists rely on modern electronics such as ABS to compensate for slow reaction times.

[waremark]

- and they still take more or less the same distance to stop as they did back then.

I'm not sure I'd agree with that.

I thought that one might provoke some discussion! Does anyone have any facts?

By the way, Jaguar used disk brakes at Le Mans in 1953, and they were standard on the XK140 introduced in 1955.

[ExadiNigel]

As has been mentioned, a lot will depend on the car. Also which model of car. The Focus 1.6 petrol has front disks and drum rear whilst the 1.8 tdci has disks all round.

How well does the driver maintain the suspension?

Reaction time certainly wont have reduced since the original distances were estimated. Whether they have increased due to extra distractions in the car I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised either way.

Take into account tyre condition. In comparison tests (in the wet) comparing a cars with 3mm tread and then swapping the tyres to ones with 1.6mm tread.

Braking distances increased by..

A4 (extra 30 metres)
Rav4 (extra 37 metres)
Clio (extra 38 metres)
Focus (44 extra metres)

I would suggest the old figures are a reasonable guestimate for general use because there are so many variables.

Nigel