This get my blood boiling..........(breathe, stay calm!)

[JConnors]

TIME FOR ME TO GET RIGHT ON MY SOAP BOX AND HAVE A BLOODY GOOD RANT AND RAVE!!!

I apologise to all if this may go against the grain for some, but I need to air my thoughts and see what others think.

What the hell is going on with the CPS!!! Why are they putting a Class 1 police driver through the system, once again!!, for doing 159mph when young carpenter is let off for doing 150mph!!! What the ****!!

Is it me, or am i missing the point here? The police officer was doing high speeds in the middle of the night, on empty roads to see if that the vehicle was suitable for the job. The carpenter was clocked doing the high speeds when overtaking a van, therefore proving that there were other vehicles on the road (as well as a marked police car!!).

Search the web for "PC Mark Milton" and "Nicholas Whittle"....

I am miffed, bemused, shocked, annoyed (can you not tell!!) and dumb founded!

<STEPPING DOWN OFF SOAP BOX NOW>

Your views......

[vonhosen]

The carpenter has only been aquitted of the dangerous driving though hasn't he ?

He is still awaiting trial for speeding & no insurance.
I don't think he'll fair so well with them.


As for Mr Milton
The CPS didn't bring the prosecution in the first place.
His colleague's & bosses did.
His bosses pass the buck to the CPS because they don't want allegations thrown at them if they NFA it, the CPS pass the buck to the courts because they don't want allegations thrown at them if they NFA it & the court have to deal with it.

[Lynne]

What the hell is going on with the CPS!!! Why are they putting a Class 1 police driver through the system, once again!!, for doing 159mph when young carpenter is let off for doing 150mph!!! What the f**k!!

...

I'm the first to admit rather niaeve when it comes to law like this suppose because I've never really had to know.

But if he's been aquitted how can he be bought to trial again. Is there new evidence or something? Poor bloke.



Lynne

[Nigel]

Its simple really.

The popular press ( and me ) hate speed cameras.

The government has been shoving a well intentioned but missleading safety message down our throats.

Cameras ( therefore authority) have brought lots of people to justice for relatively minor infringements of traffic law, lots of people don't like this, the popular press has noticed.

PC Mark Milton represents authority, so the press are gunning for him.

[vonhosen]

I'm the first to admit rather niaeve when it comes to law like this suppose because I've never really had to know.

But if he's been aquitted how can he be bought to trial again. Is there new evidence or something? Poor bloke.



Lynne

Because the original trial judge accepted for consideration in their judgement, evidence that should have been ruled as inadmissable. Therefore the aquittal was based on evidence that shouldn't have been allowed to be given in the first place & a retrial has been ordered with a new bench.

[gwb54]

If they need to 'familiarise' themselves with their vehicles, do a track day like everyone else has to

There's no need to travel a a ton+59 to do that

No sympathy, I'm afraid

[crr003]

If they need to 'familiarise' themselves with their vehicles, do a track day like everyone else has to

There's no need to travel a a ton+59 to do that

No sympathy, I'm afraid

I've got this image of a battenburg Vectra queing up with scoobies and Morgans on an open pit lane day

So what number do you think's reasonable if 159 is too much? 100, 120, 80?

[TripleS]

If they need to 'familiarise' themselves with their vehicles, do a track day like everyone else has to

There's no need to travel a a ton+59 to do that

No sympathy, I'm afraid

I don't dispute the fact that the use of a closed circuit is relevant for certain police driving/training purposes, and of course skid pan training is but one example. Even so, for formal training and indeed other high speed driving, I don't see a workable alternative to the use of public roads for some of it. The environment used for training simply must be representative of the conditions in which the police drivers will have to work subsequently.

If you don't face up to that during the training stages, you are simply increasing the risks of things going wrong when they have to do real pursuits on public roads with normal traffic around. I think it is a matter of settling for the lesser evil.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[vonhosen]

If they need to 'familiarise' themselves with their vehicles, do a track day like everyone else has to

There's no need to travel a a ton+59 to do that

No sympathy, I'm afraid

I don't dispute the fact that the use of a closed circuit is relevant for certain police driving/training purposes, and of course skid pan training is but one example. Even so, for formal training and indeed other high speed driving, I don't see a workable alternative to the use of public roads for some of it. The environment used for training simply must be representative of the conditions in which the police drivers will have to work subsequently.

If you don't face up to that during the training stages, you are simply increasing the risks of things going wrong when they have to do real pursuits on public roads with normal traffic around. I think it is a matter of settling for the lesser evil.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

I agree Dave.

Training has to be relevant to the environment that you are going to be operating in.
Police do have driving simulators, but the software writers (having been allowed to look at the real thing) admit they can't match the level of interaction that the real world presents. It can be a low level taster & is obviously very safe, but it can't alone prepare you adequately for the real world.

In regards to PC Milton, the real question is was what he was doing training or was he just having a jolly ?
His colleagues & bosses don't appear to be in much doubt on that score & neither are the CPS evidently.

IMHO nobody should be self familiarising with a new vehicle without supervision by somebody qualified to assess/instruct/test.

If you are that concerned that a vehicle is substantially different to others that you usually drive, you should be supervised.
If it is not substantially different from other vehicles you drive you don't need familiarise youself at speed with it.

But you've got to explore what the limits of the vehicle are I hear somebody cry,
but the truth is you should never be approaching your, the vehicles or the conditions limits on a public road, you should always be driving comfortably within them, even in a real pursuit.

Exploring limits is for the track.
Always being safe is for the road.
Training on the limit is for the track.
Training to drive safely at speed is for the road (but that does not include self familiarising a new vehicle IMHO)

[JConnors]

Who is going to pay for the track days??
The police are strapped for money as it is.

Where else can you test cars...a race track is a purpose built flat surface for high speed motor vehilces, that are designed to be driven on snooker table smooth surfaces, so testing a road-going car on a track is going to give you false or incorrect information.

What if the car was found to be not suitable for the speeds on an actual live pursuit after being driven on a track...who's going to take the blame then? The driver or the force?

[vonhosen]

Who is going to pay for the track days??
The police are strapped for money as it is.

Where else can you test cars...a race track is a purpose built flat surface for high speed motor vehilces, that are designed to be driven on snooker table smooth surfaces, so testing a road-going car on a track is going to give you false or incorrect information.

What if the car was found to be not suitable for the speeds on an actual live pursuit after being driven on a track...who's going to take the blame then? The driver or the force?

You won't get track days, but the cars do.

Police cars are all tested for handling & braking problems etc prior to being issued for service. Not just on smooth race tracks but a variety of surfaces. Believe me engineer departments do not take into service any new vehicle without it passing all the tests.

Your training is such that whatever you are dealing with you shouldn't be anywhere near approaching limits with a vehicle on the road, so what exactly is being tested in this run ?
You or the car ?

You should always be able to stop within the distance you can see to be clear & you shouldn't be approaching the top speed of the vehicle.
You shouldn't be outrunning limit points & unless surface becomes an issue (which is not down to the vehicle) the limit point speed is always going to be comfortably within the vehicle's handling limits.
If you drive to how you have been trained, what problems do you expect ?

Are you going to start inducing oversteer to see how easy it is to catch & at what point it will break away?
No of course you're not.

Like I said, if you are unhappy to drive a new car that comes on the fleet without first having a familiarisation on it, you can refuse to drive it & ask for a familiarisation with somebody qualified to supervise you doing it. Nobody can force you to drive a car if you are unhappy to.

If the force believes the vehicle is so substantially different to vehicles on the fleet,they will demand anyone who is to drive it is familiarised on it first.

No force wants you out testing the vehicle on your own against your own testing criteria & if you look in your driver's regulations you'll find it's expressly forbidden.

I saw in one article that as a result of this case his force has issued a direction that all their Police drivers are capped to 120mph maximum.

[Roadcraft]

If they need to 'familiarise' themselves with their vehicles, do a track day like everyone else has to

There's no need to travel a a ton+59 to do that

No sympathy, I'm afraid

There aren't many tracks where you can achieve 159mph.....

Speeds of 140 are regularly achieved by traffic police on motorway attending incidents....

These incidents aren't every day occurances, so if there aren't training, (regularly) or honing of skills.....such skills can become rusty...thus putting the public at risk...

I don't agree with doing high speeds in 30, 40 and 50s...during such honing of skills,but on empty motorways and such like....

If this case is proved against Milton, you'll find a dangerous presedence in police driving is set...where police are reluctant to exceed speed limits...which IMHO only the public will suffer by poor attendance times and such like..

Still, the public knows best and will get what it wants...

[Roadcraft]

If they need to 'familiarise' themselves with their vehicles, do a track day like everyone else has to

There's no need to travel a a ton+59 to do that

No sympathy, I'm afraid

I've got this image of a battenburg Vectra queing up with scoobies and Morgans on an open pit lane day

So what number do you think's reasonable if 159 is too much? 100, 120, 80?

Good question....

Some members of the public were weaned on TJ Hooker and such like and i'm afraid are a bit naive as to the 'real world'...

[gwb54]

If they need to 'familiarise' themselves with their vehicles, do a track day like everyone else has to

There's no need to travel a a ton+59 to do that

No sympathy, I'm afraid

I've got this image of a battenburg Vectra queing up with scoobies and Morgans on an open pit lane day

So what number do you think's reasonable if 159 is too much? 100, 120, 80?

Good question....

Some members of the public were weaned on TJ Hooker and such like and i'm afraid are a bit naive as to the 'real world'...

....Use a Plain Car mate


I hope no-one is suggesting I'm naiive, because I can assure you I'm not...

So the next question:

How many accidents involving police vehicles are there year-on-year, and how many of those are attributable to inappropriate of excessive speed?

I did a skid pan day recently with our local force ( you can hire time and the vehicle- do one of these if you possibly can - absolute riot)

The instructor was of the opinion that Police driving standards had fallen generally

And

As Advanced Drivers, we anticipate that which can be 'Reasonably expected to happen'

Is it reasonable to expect a car to be closing on you from behind at more than twice the maximum national speed limit?

What happens if someone pulls out, having not seen the approaching vehicle of misjudged it's speed?

Who is responsible for the ensuing spectacular and no doubt fatal wreck?

What can possibly happen to justify this type of speed?

In what distance can the police vehicle reduce its speed from 159 to 70, including thinking distance?

As Advanced Drivers, we would very likely be OK, but what about the Ordinary Joe, who has no advanced training?

It goes on and on.......

[Roadcraft]

....Use a Plain Car mate

Use a plain car for what? Don't understand you?

I hope no-one is suggesting I'm naiive, because I can assure you I'm not...

perhaps "living in anything other than an ideal world" would be a better description

So the next question:

How many accidents involving police vehicles are there year-on-year, and how many of those are attributable to inappropriate of excessive speed?

I don't know if that is a statement or a question. Either way I don't have an accurate answer. I can answer from my experience and knowledge of my own force. The majority of police RTCs involved standard drivers..ie: panda drivers on blues and two..often within the speed limit...or just over, but having come into conflict with other vehicles. Normally at junctions or red lights etc.
I can't remember the last 100mph+ collision involving a police vehicle in my force..
The amount of police vehicle collisions v the numbers of miles travelled, at the speeds travelled and in the circumstances encountered...is in a very favourable light if you compare it to the 'run of the mill' motorist..

The instructor was of the opinion that Police driving standards had fallen generally

I would agree. Very few drivers are now trained to an advanced level, other than traffic, firearms or crime squad officers...and together all the types of officer only make up a small percentage of the police force.

Money saving and penny pinching has a lot to answer for, as has the decline in traffic police numbers, instead relying on speed cameras...

As Advanced Drivers, we anticipate that which can be 'Reasonably expected to happen'

Is it reasonable to expect a car to be closing on you from behind at more than twice the maximum national speed limit?

What happens if someone pulls out, having not seen the approaching vehicle of misjudged it's speed?

The incident which Milton case refers involved no other traffic.

If you really wish to look at emergency service driving and training, it might be worth looking at the numbers of collisions involving paramedic/ambulance staff.
I've attended several this year, all of which have been the fault of the paramedic.
They have very little training, NO re-training, and their high-speed response cars have drivers who have undergone a two-week course. Big Deal...

Of course it's not sexy or attractive or keeping in kudos to complain about the medical staff's training and performance...when there are police officers we can complain about....is it?

Who is responsible for the ensuing spectacular and no doubt fatal wreck?

The police officer. Every time. Police have the exemption in law to exceed the speed limit, but not at the expense of a collision.

What can possibly happen to justify this type of speed?

If you don't know, I can only put it down to the fact that you obviously don't encounter and deal with the kinds of things that the emergency services have to; the police in particular

There are countless occasions where minutes or even seconds arrival time have prevented a disaster occuring....Again though, not at the expense of a collision en-route...as you're no good to anyone then..