de-clutter our roads?

[martine]

Many of you will be aware of the Dutch experiment in 'shared space' on the roads in a town called Drachten.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space

For an example of a roundabout see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21uZ0eQA35c

[jasonh]

I've been advocating this kind of thing for ages. It's striking how removing all the typical accoutrements of the roads makes people have to think. In areas where the "path" is a green strip of tarmac running by the "road" which is simply the black bit with trees and build-outs, drivers are so unused to the sight that they can't help paying more attention.

[Gareth]

I'm split between thinking it is a good idea and preferring the idea of having just enough signs to warn of dangers that aren't obvious.

drivers are so unused to the sight that they can't help paying more attention.

Surely this is a transitory effect; more interesting is what happens when all road users have become used to the lack of signs and separation.

My recent experience of non-UK road usage is Sweden, where, it seems, most drivers go very much out of their way to give way to pedestrians and cyclists. Perhaps it's because of the much lower population density, (leading to a less stressful driving environment and greater consideration for others), or maybe they have relatively swingeing penalties whenever a vehicle comes into contact with pedestrians or cyclists.

[jasonh]

drivers are so unused to the sight that they can't help paying more attention.

Surely this is a transitory effect; more interesting is what happens when all road users have become used to the lack of signs and separation.

Maybe - I'd be interested to know what does happen, whether the effect endures or is ephemeral.

[TripleS]

I voted enthusiastically for decluttering, though that's not to say that all signs and markings should be removed, but there certainly wouldn't be many left if I had my way.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Big Err]

De-cluttering in the rural environment means less things to hit when it goes wrong, and puts more onus on the driver to be aware of their environment and less reliance on being told that in an agricultural area there might be some farm traffic!

In the urban environment the Dutch experiment worked really well. But it wasn't as simple as just removing lines and signs, it involved alot of other engineering measures to sensitise the driver to other road users and the environment. They even extended a school playground across the road outside the school!

Switching off traffic lights at a busy junction has a similar effect as no one can claim right of way, the drivers tend to interact with each other in a helpful manner instead of the usual gesticulations etc. Unfortunately pedestrians don't normally stand a chance in these circumstances.

[PeterE]

Switching off traffic lights at a busy junction has a similar effect as no one can claim right of way, the drivers tend to interact with each other in a helpful manner instead of the usual gesticulations etc. Unfortunately pedestrians don't normally stand a chance in these circumstances.

Unless there is a fairly even balance of flows it is likely that once drivers have got used to the arrangement the busier road will in effect end up "colonising" the junction, making it very difficult to get out from the minor road.

The same can be seen at roundabouts with a strong dominant flow.

[TripleS]

Switching off traffic lights at a busy junction has a similar effect as no one can claim right of way, the drivers tend to interact with each other in a helpful manner instead of the usual gesticulations etc. Unfortunately pedestrians don't normally stand a chance in these circumstances.

Unless there is a fairly even balance of flows it is likely that once drivers have got used to the arrangement the busier road will in effect end up "colonising" the junction, making it very difficult to get out from the minor road.

The same can be seen at roundabouts with a strong dominant flow.

I think your concerns are perfectly valid Peter, but I would suggest that a suitable campaign of driver educational messages could induce a satisfactory degree of co-operation between road users, in which case the problem would largely disappear.

From my observations I would say road users are in general working quite well together, and the authorities should give credit for this and seek to build on it; and then we wouldn't need so many damned stupid laws and other constraints.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

The wikipedia article linked to points to "shared space". I'm not sure that's the same thing as decluttering. The New Road project in Brighton is claimed to have reduced car journeys by 90% and car road speeds to 10mph. That's not decluttering, that's just moving the traffic somewhere else. Some other road in Brighton is now crammed with nose to tail traffic that used to use this now warm and fuzzy "shared space". Another quote (about a scheme in Seven Dials) says "pedestrians are encouraged to wander across the road". This strikes me as just another word for pedestrianisation. All well and good in city shopping centres, but traffic still has to have somewhere to go. Looks like a way of getting drivers off the road, wrapped up in friendly sounding eco-speak. I'm struggling to find a reason, as a driver, to vote for it. As a pedestrian or a cyclist, it sounds lovely.

[jmaccyd]

As a pedestrian or a cyclist, it sounds lovely.

Which of course most of us are when where not behind the wheel of a car.

[TripleS]

The wikipedia article linked to points to "shared space". I'm not sure that's the same thing as decluttering. The New Road project in Brighton is claimed to have reduced car journeys by 90% and car road speeds to 10mph. That's not decluttering, that's just moving the traffic somewhere else. Some other road in Brighton is now crammed with nose to tail traffic that used to use this now warm and fuzzy "shared space". Another quote (about a scheme in Seven Dials) says "pedestrians are encouraged to wander across the road". This strikes me as just another word for pedestrianisation. All well and good in city shopping centres, but traffic still has to have somewhere to go. Looks like a way of getting drivers off the road, wrapped up in friendly sounding eco-speak. I'm struggling to find a reason, as a driver, to vote for it. As a pedestrian or a cyclist, it sounds lovely.

I've no time for what sounds like the anti-car policy at Brighton. It seems to me deserving of serious protest by drivers, and I hope they make that protest and give the local authority a bloody nose over it.

What they should be encouraging is a situation whereby the different road user groups understand each other better, and learn to function more harmoniously together, then everybody gets a fair deal.

Favouring certain groups, e.g. pedestrians and cyclists, by being a PITA to drivers is not the way to improve matters.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[jmaccyd]

The wikipedia article linked to points to "shared space". I'm not sure that's the same thing as decluttering. The New Road project in Brighton is claimed to have reduced car journeys by 90% and car road speeds to 10mph. That's not decluttering, that's just moving the traffic somewhere else. Some other road in Brighton is now crammed with nose to tail traffic that used to use this now warm and fuzzy "shared space". Another quote (about a scheme in Seven Dials) says "pedestrians are encouraged to wander across the road". This strikes me as just another word for pedestrianisation. All well and good in city shopping centres, but traffic still has to have somewhere to go. Looks like a way of getting drivers off the road, wrapped up in friendly sounding eco-speak. I'm struggling to find a reason, as a driver, to vote for it. As a pedestrian or a cyclist, it sounds lovely.

I've no time for what sounds like the anti-car policy at Brighton. It seems to me deserving of serious protest by drivers, and I hope they make that protest and give the local authority a bloody nose over it.

What they should be encouraging is a situation whereby the different road user groups understand each other better, and learn to function more harmoniously together, then everybody gets a fair deal.

Favouring certain groups, e.g. pedestrians and cyclists, by being a PITA to drivers is not the way to improve matters.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

Well I couldn't agree more as a cyclist and pedestrian as well as a working motorist (a road user) that more understanding is required. You talk of 'favouring' certain groups, I know from a cycling and pedestrian background, it would be argued that the motor car has been the favoured in town planning for the last forty years and what is happening now is more akin to a 're-balancing' towards other road users. This is not an 'eco-babble' argument but about creating safer and fairer places to live and work

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

If car road speeds need to be reduced to 10mph because pedestrians are "encouraged to wander across the road", it's not going to work. While block paving across the entire width of the roadway with no kerbs looks pretty, it encourages mixing rather than separation. Pedestrians and moving cars don't mix. IMHO they work better separated.

Yes the car has been favoured and a balance is being restored, but cycle lanes and better pedestrian paths OFF the road, seem to me a much better and safer solution.

[Big Err]

Another quote (about a scheme in Seven Dials) says "pedestrians are encouraged to wander across the road". This strikes me as just another word for pedestrianisation.

or natural selection?

[Big Err]

Yes the car has been favoured and a balance is being restored, but cycle lanes and better pedestrian paths OFF the road, seem to me a much better and safer solution.

I think the defining word is 'appropriateness'?

The shared spaces work great within housing and shopping precincts that are not open to high traffic volumes/speeds and do not feature as part of a main route or a rat run.

There is the 'famous' Kensington High Street where a lot of the street furntiture was removed, and I believe is still being hailed a success? However, the socio-economics of that area and associated casualty trends may be part of its success. A similar exercise in a run down inner city environment might not achive the same results.