Photo-card Licence Renewal: 7.5 Tonne Minibus & Trailer

[Flexibase]

Photo-card Licence Renewal: 7.5 Tonne, Minibus & Trailer Loss

I have just discovered that, although the DVLA leaflets are not clear, they do say, if read carefully, that not only upon reaching the age of 70 years, but also on the RENEWAL OF A DRIVING LICENCE, and the first of the PHOTO-CARD ONES are now STARTING TO EXPIRE, unless you apply for, and pass a medical examination, you will LOSE driving licence classes C1, C1+E, D1 D1+E.

This means that, unless you apply and pass the medical, you will lose small lorry (7.5 tonner), Minibus of 9 to 16 passenger seats AND trailer combinations over 3,500 Kgm MAM (Max. Authorised Mass).

This will include many larger caravans and most horse trailers with 4x4 combinations.

DVLA state that they will sed reminders BUT they need your current address for you to receive it!

[ROG]

OK, if I've now got the jist of this.........

The Photos on the card have to be updated every 10 years.

This will not affect licence entitlement.

Medicals only have to be taken for upgrades to be retained and are seperate to the photo requirements

Anything gained by 'Grandfather rights' does not require a seperate medical - just the same as the car (B) one at age 70.

http://trucknetuk.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=35415 is definitely worth a read and it contains a link to the DfT on this issue

[MGF]

That's what I thought. Renewing the photo is not necessarily the same as renewing your licence.

You need to renew the photo every 10 years but the licence itself is renewed at 70??

[Flexibase]

Thanks to ROG for his opinion and web site ref. - both perhaps wishful thinking, and certainly what I believed until I carefully read the details?

Ref.the comment that only the *photo.* expires:

Photo-card *licences* EXPIRE after 10 years - see item 4b on rear of licence: "licence valid to:"

Now for some facts from:

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/Dr ... DG_4022415

with my added stars (*):

"...If you're applying for or currently hold a car or motorcycle licence (group one) If you're applying for or currently hold a large goods vehicle or passenger carrying vehicle (group two) Extra rules for applications to drive larger vehicles over 3,500kgs, minibuses (between 9 and 16 seats) and buses

A D4 medical report form, completed by a medical practitioner, will also need to be returned with your application to DVLA if you're:

applying for entitlement to drive larger vehicles over 3500kg, minibuses (between 9 and 16 seats) and buses for the first time

a car licence holder applying to *renew* category C1 and or D1

renewing your large goods vehicle (LGV) or passenger carrying vehicle (PCV) driving entitlement on or after the age of 45 and at five yearly intervals until the age of 65 (if you're aged between 45 and 65 and have been issued with a medical short period licence, then you only need send in a D4 form if you haven't done so within the last five years)
renewing your LGV and or PCV driving entitlement on or after the age of 65 and on a yearly basis thereafter"

"Drivers already holding entitlement to drive vehicles of category C1 and or D1 and who have passed a car test before 1 January 1997, will only be required to meet the higher medical standards when the *licence is next renewed.*"

[ROG]

Drivers already holding entitlement to drive vehicles of category C1 and or D1 and who have passed a car test before 1 January 1997, will only be required to meet the higher medical standards when the licence is next renewed.

I must admit that I had not seen that bit

I'll ring them next week to confirm that info but it does seem at the moment that you are correct in saying that the above quoted catagories will be subject to the same medical at age 70 that LGV drivers etc have to do in order to retain them.

I wonder how many over 70 would NEED to retain them and for what purpose

There is no mention of B+E requiring such a medical

[MGF]

Ref.the comment that only the *photo.* expires:

Photo-card *licences* EXPIRE after 10 years - see item 4b on rear of licence: "licence valid to:"

Reading that in conjuction with form INF45/1 (sent with the licence explaining what the information on it means)


4. Date of licence issue, photo expiry, issuing authority.

The date shown in 4a is the date the photograph is valid from. 4b shows the date the photograph must be renewed.


4b for me is in 3 years time.

If I look at the back of my licence I can see that my entitlement for D1 101 expires on my 70th birthday.


from INF45/1

15. Category validitiy periods.

These are the dates when your entitlement to drive each category of vehicle begins and ends.


There is nothing here to suggest that renewing a photo is the same as renewing a licence.

If it is the case that a licence needs to be renewed when the photo expires then this contradicts the 'validitiy periods'. These dates could never be beyond the photo renewal date.


My understanding of all this is that you don't need to renew a licence until your entitlement expires.

Sort of make sense really, if you need to renew it before surely it follows your entitlement is only until the earlier date.

Now for some law.

RTA 1988

99. Duration of licences.

— (1) In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive motor vehicles of classes other than any prescribed class of goods vehicle or any prescribed class of passenger-carrying vehicle, it shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force,—

(a)
except in a case falling within paragraph (b) or (c) of this subsection, for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth or for a period of three years, whichever is the longer,

(b)
except in a case falling within paragraph (c) of this subsection, if the Secretary of State so determines in the case of a licence to be granted to a person appearing to him to be suffering from a relevant or prospective disability, for such period of not more than three years and not less than one year as the Secretary of State may determine, and

(c)
in the case of a licence granted in exchange for a subsisting licence and in pursuance of an application requesting a licence for the period authorised by this paragraph, for a period equal to the remainder of that for which the subsisting licence was granted,
and any such period shall begin with the date on which the licence in question is expressed to come into force.

(2A)

Where, in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force for a period of more than ten years, the holder of the licence must surrender it and its counterpart to the Secretary of State not later than the end of the period of ten years beginning with—

(a)
the date shown on the licence as the date of its issue, or

(b)
if the licence was granted by way of renewal or replacement of a licence bearing the same photograph, the date shown on the earliest licence bearing that photograph as the date of issue of that licence.


Note that the law doesn't refer to duration of 'entitlement' but to duration of 'licences'.


Looking at all this I cannot see how a licence needs to be renewed with the photograph, notwithstanding that the whole licence becomes invalid (regardless of the categories of entitlement) if the photograph is not renewed.

[ScoobyChris]

It's interesting that I don't need to demonstrate I can drive the categories already on my license, but just that I am medically fit should I wish to retain them!

I guess they'll be falling off my licence in 2010 then

Chris

[ROG]

Looking at all this I cannot see how a licence needs to be renewed when the photograph does notwithstanding that the whole licence becomes invalid (regardless of the categories of entitlement) if the photograph is not renewed.

There ia a FINE (up to 1K) if the photo is not valid but that is all.
As you have rightly pointed out, the photo and the entitlement are 2 seperate issues.

It's a bit like not changing the address when you move - you get fined for it but it has no bearing on the legal right to drive.

[Flexibase]

Thanks to MGF for his interesting comments, especially "The Law".

> Reading that in conjuction with form INF45/1 (sent with the licence explaining what the information on it means)

Do you know the date that INF45/1 was issued, i.e is it up to date?

> 4. Date of licence issue, photo expiry, issuing authority.

> The date shown in 4a is the date the photograph is valid from. 4b shows the date the photograph must be renewed.

> 4b for me is in 3 years time.

Mine states that 4b is "*licence* valid to" and mine is 29/03/10.

> If I look at the back of my licence I can see that my entitlement for D1 101 expires on my 70th birthday.

So does mine, which I agree is certainly confusing when read with the DVLA leaflet.
>...
> Now for some law.

> RTA 1988

Is the quote form the orginal RTA 1988, because it has had numerous amendments since and the DVLA leaflet INFO40, which staretd this thread, states

"...2. Rules since January 1998",

so the unamanded RTA 1988 does not help unless all of the later amendments have been read and understood. I have asked DVLA to tell me which legislation covers the point but, in the meantime, I will attempt to plough through the RTA amendments which appear on the Internet.

It won't be the first time that a Government Dept. has misread and/or misunderstood and/or misquoted the Law, as some of you will know with my Minibus "L" Supervisors' Saga with the DSA -http://minibussaga.blogspot.com/

However, it could be / probably is that the quoted RTA 1988 pre-dates the photo-card licences so does not cover them.

[MGF]

Do you know the date that INF45/1 was issued, i.e is it up to date?

It has '05/07' on it so I guess that is the date it was last updated. It was sent to me in September when I changed address.

Mine states that 4b is "*licence* valid to" and mine is 29/03/10.

Your licence or your copy of INF45/1? My licence states 'licence valid to' but then it also says it is only 'valid from' September this year and it wasn't renewed then. In other words 'licence valid to' and 'from' doesn't appear to be related to renewal.

Is the quote form the orginal RTA 1988, because it has had numerous amendments since......

I took it from StatuteLawDatabase which includes amendments (you can see reference to photocards) but for the sake of certainty the text below comes from a legal database and these provisions are accurate as of 27th February 2007 (although there are some changes pending).



99.— Duration of licences.

(1) In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive motor vehicles of classes other than any prescribed class of goods vehicle or any prescribed class of passenger-carrying vehicle, it shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force—

(a) except in a case falling within paragraph (b) or (c) of this subsection, for the period ending on the seventieth anniversary of the applicant's date of birth or for a period of three years, whichever is the longer,

(b) except in a case falling within paragraph (c) of this subsection, if the Secretary of State so determines in the case of a licence to be granted to a person appearing to him to be suffering from a relevant or prospective disability, for such period of not more than three years and not less than one year as the Secretary of State may determine, and

(c) in the case of a licence granted in exchange for a subsisting licence and in pursuance of an application requesting a licence for the period authorised by this paragraph, for a period equal to the remainder of that for which the subsisting licence was granted,

and any such period shall begin with the date on which the licence in question is expressed to come into force.

(2A) Where, in accordance with the preceding provisions of this section, a licence in the form of a photocard remains in force for a period of more than ten years, the holder of the licence must surrender it and its counterpart to the Secretary of State not later than the end of the period of ten years beginning with—

(a) the date shown on the licence as the date of its issue, or

(b) if the licence was granted by way of renewal or replacement of a licence bearing the same photograph, the date shown on the earliest licence bearing that photograph as the date of issue of that licence.

Additionally, subsection 7:-

(7) On the surrender of a licence and its counterpart by a person in pursuance of subsection (2A),.. above, the Secretary of State must
(subject to the following provisions of this section) grant a new licence to that person

(7ZA) The Secretary of State is not required by subsection (7) above to grant a new licence on the surrender of a licence and its counterpart by a person in pursuance of subsection (2A) above unless the person has paid the fee (if any) which is prescribed; but any other licence under that subsection is to be granted free of charge.


So if you are renewing your photocard you are only obliged to pay a fee. The legislation doesn't appear to authorise any more conditions, eg a medical.

[Flexibase]

Thanks to MGF for that most useful link:
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?

but please note my *highlights* in the quoted Law:

>> (1) In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive motor vehicles of classes *other than any prescribed class of goods vehicle or any prescribed class of passenger-carrying vehicle*, it shall, unless previously revoked or surrendered, remain in force-...

So it is possible that C1 and D1 are now "prescribed classes of goods vehicle or passenger-carrying vehicle".

I have yet to find the definition of "prescribed classes of goods vehicle or passenger-carrying vehicle" but will keep looking.

In the meantime, from the same Legal database, I have found the following (copied and pasted for accuracy), which again uses: "any prescribed class of goods vehicle or passenger-carrying vehicle":

However, this does not appear to clarify the matter under discussion, i.e. remewal of photo-card licences!

Road Traffic (Driver Licensing and Information Systems) Act 1989 (c. 22)

Part I Driving Licences

2.
Special provisions relating to licensing of drivers of LGVs and PCVs.

— (1) There shall be inserted as Part IV of the 1988 Act the provisions set out in Schedule 2 to this Act which—
(a)
apply both to the licensing of the drivers of large goods vehicles and to the licensing of the drivers of passenger-carrying vehicles (as there defined); and
(b)
re-enact and assimilate certain of the provisions of Part IV of the 1988 Act (as originally enacted) and of section 22 of the 1981 Act to take account of the abolition by section 1 above of special licences to drive heavy goods vehicles and public service vehicles and the granting after the appointed day of licences to drive such vehicles under Part III of the 1988 Act.

(2) After section 99(1) of the 1988 Act (duration of licences) there shall be inserted the following subsection—
"(1A) In so far as a licence authorises its holder to drive *any prescribed class of goods vehicle or passenger-carrying vehicle*, it shall, unless previously revoked, suspended or surrendered, remain in force—
(a)
except in a case falling within paragraph (c) or (d) of this subsection—
(i) for the period ending on the forty-fifth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth or for a period of five years, whichever is the longer, or
(ii) where the applicant’s age at the date on which the licence is to come into force will exceed forty-five but not sixty-five years, for the period ending on the sixty-sixth anniversary of the applicant’s date of birth or for a period of five years, whichever is the shorter,
(b)
except in a case falling within paragraph (d) of this subsection, where the applicant’s age at that date will exceed sixty-five years, for a period of one year,
(c)
except in a case falling within paragraph (b) or (d) of this subsection, if the Secretary of State so determines in the case of a licence to be granted to a person appearing to him to be suffering from a relevant or prospective disability, for such period of not more than three years and not less than one year as the Secretary of State may determine, and
(d)
in the case of a licence granted in exchange for a subsisting licence and in pursuance of an application requesting a licence for the period authorised by this paragraph, for a period equal to the remainder of that for which the subsisting licence was granted,
and any such period shall begin with the date on which the licence in question is expressed to come into force."

[Flexibase]

On a practical note, has any reader experience of renewing a photo-card licence?

If so, did you lose your C1 and D1?

[Flexibase]

I have now found the "Prescribed classes of goods and passenger-carrying vehicle" from which it appears the DVLA may have got it wrong.

Although I have previously requested them to quote the legislation justifying their leaflet's cmments, I will now refer them to this thread and invite their comments!


The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1999 (No. 2864)

PART IV GOODS AND PASSENGER-CARRYING VEHICLES

Part III of the Traffic Act: Prescribed classes of goods and passenger-carrying vehicle

49. — (1) All classes of motor vehicle included in categories C, C+E, D and D+E, except vehicles of classes included in sub-categories C1, C1+E (8.25 tonnes) D1 (not for hire or reward) and D1+E (not for hire or reward), are prescribed for the purposes of section 89A(3) of the Traffic Act.

(2) Subject to paragraph (3), all classes of motor vehicle included in categories C, C+E, D and D+E, except vehicles of classes included in sub-categories C1+E (8.25 tonnes), D1 (not for hire or reward) and D1+E (not for hire or reward), are prescribed for the purposes of section 99(1) and (1A) of the Traffic Act.

(3) In the case of a licence in force at a time before 1st January 1997, paragaph (2) above shall apply as if “C1," was inserted after “sub-categories".

4) All classes of motor vehicle included in categories C, C+E, D and D+E, except vehicles of classes included in sub-categories C1+E (8.25 tonnes), D1 (not for hire or reward) and D1+E (not for hire or reward), are prescribed for the purposes of section 99A(3) and (4) of the Traffic Act.

[Darren]

On a practical note, has any reader experience of renewing a photo-card licence?
If so, did you lose your C1 and D1?

I've just got married and moved house. I sent my licence in earlier in the week, will see what it comes back with and report.

I've only just spotted this thread, but if they remove it, thats my wife's horsie competing shot as I won't be able to tow by the sounds of it.

[Flexibase]

Ref. Darren's:

> ...moved house. I sent my licence in earlier in the week, will see what it comes back with and report.

> I've only just spotted this thread, but if they remove it, thats my wife's horsie competing shot as I won't be able to tow by the sounds of it.

You shouldn't lose your C1 and D1 if it's only a change of address, rather than a renewal of an expired licence.

However, the DVLA have been know to "lose" groups and even test passes when converting licences and one contribitor to this forum lodged scanned copied of his paper licence with a few friends before sending it just in case!

On the horse trailer towing front, the other problem regularly occuring is that those passing the "L" test from Jan. 1997 don't have D1 or C1, so need to pass another "L" test for Minibus or to tow a combination over 3,500 KGM and most, if not all, horse trailer combinations are over that!