Designing Routes on Sat Navs - why so painful (and expensive

[Custom24]

Hi
I have read Gareth's excellent sat nav page on his site, which at least explained some of the options on this to me.

I currently have a basic Garmin StreetPilot i3 sat nav and was considering buying a Garmin 710. The i3 is basic, but has served me well, but I'd like to be able to follow the routes on the aduk days as my nav skills are hopeless. I think the 710 would be fine for this - it certainly supports importing of route files.

However, I'd also like to be able to design routes for such days, or for my associates, or for myself to bimble around unexplored roads.

I don't want to spend the extra money on buying the map data again for my PC (Garmin's support line have verified I'd need to do this, which would cost almost as much as the 710 itself).

How do others on here generate the routes? I could generate them on the device itself, but the problem is I don't know how usable it is for that. When I tried one in Halfords, it didn't have a signal inside the store, so I couldn't try this function.

Basically, I am not happy about paying for the maps to run on the device and also for the same maps on my PC - I think that's outrageous!

Maybe I need to buy something that's not a Garmin?

Thanks for any advice
Mark

[waremark]

I use a TomTom. You can create routes on the PC and then transfer them to the TomTom using a free program called TYRE, which basically allows you to use a cut-down version of Google Maps. However, actually I find it easier to do the route planning on the full online version of Google maps, and then to enter the route directly into the TomTom. This is quite easy, and would no doubt work equally satisfactorily for the Garmin.

TYRE also makes it dead easy to transfer to the TomTom a route file which has been created for Garmin (eg by StressedDave).

In both the TT and Garmin ranges, you have to choose one of the higher end versions to get the Routes/Itinerary feature.

Personally, I changed from a Garmin 660 to the Tomtom, and I find that the TT is even better (both are good).

[Horse]

Hi Chaps,

Timely thread, as I've just bought a 760T for the Filly to use @work.

Any links to idiots' guides for route planning?

Ta.

[Gareth]

Our experience of both Garmin and TomTom is that Garmin is better for following predefined routes and TomTom is better for giving timely instructions in built-up areas. The TomTom has a prettier display and is both quicker and smoother to update the screen, and according to the reports I've read, Garmin's have much more useful points of interest.

The MapSource + map data DVD covers the whole of Europe, albeit with differing levels of detail at a country level. This is different from the nuvi 710 which only includes UK mapping data. Given the small price difference between the nuvi 710 and the nuvi 760, I would choose the latter which also includes European mapping.

By the way, when I looked today, I'm saw the nuvi 710 being advertised at about £180 (on-line) and the nuvi 760 at about £200 (Halfords mail order). MapSource plus mapping data DVD seems to be about £130.

If you are going to buy a Garmin unit, I think it makes more sense to get one that allows maps to be downloaded from MapSource running on a PC, so that there when there is a new version of the map data, there is only one item to update. Cheaper, consequently. I can see the short term price advantage in not doing this, but it definitely should be one of the factors when choosing what to buy.

If I was to buy an all-in-one Garmin unit now, I would choose the zumo 550 as that includes a MapSource and map data DVD. At £400 this is clearly more expensive than a nuvi 760 + MapSource DVD, but it compares favourably with what was available a few years ago when the Garmin Quest provided similar abilities but with a much smaller screen and at a significantly higher price, not even allowing for inflation.

The zumo 550 has another advantage over the nuvi 710/760 models in that it can hold more routes. The nuvi models are limited to 10 at a time, but the zumo can hold up to 50.

It's interesting that planning routes for TomTom depends exclusively on Google Maps - there is no other solution, so if you want to be able to create routes on a PC without depending on an internet connection, then Garmin appears to be the only option.

[Gareth]

Any links to idiots' guides for route planning?

If it doesn't come with a user guide, then it is possible to download a pdf from Garmin's website. The manual has a section entitled Creating and Taking Routes.

[ScoobyChris]

I'm glad this topic came up as I've been thinking about trying to bag a bargain in the coming January sales

Am I right in thinking that the MapSource and maps DVD is only needed for planning routes and that pre-defined routes (as gpx files?) can simply be copied to the unit without it?

Chris

[Gareth]

Am I right in thinking that the MapSource and maps DVD is only needed for planning routes

Yes for Garmin's 700 series, but as per the user guide I linked to earlier, it is possible to create routes on the unit.

and that pre-defined routes (as gpx files?) can simply be copied to the unit without it?

Don't know.

I've not managed to transfer a route onto Hanna's nuvi 760 except by using MapSource. It's not clear to me how a pre-defined route can be copied to the unit from a PC without using MapSource, although I think it is possible.

It might be that it is possible to download and install MapSource without having the map data available on a PC, and that MapSource could then be used to transfer routes.

I'd suggest giving Garmin support a call to find out what is and isn't possible.

[Custom24]

Here is a telephone conversation I just had with Garmin (the poor lad, although they are extremely helpful).

1. I am confused about maps. What does "basemap" mean in the specification listings?
A. Basemap is basic mapping. The 710 will come with a basemap of Europe, and a more detailed, pre-loaded, map of UK/ROI.

2. I am primarily interested in maps of UK/ROI. Can you give me an approx indication of how much it will cost me to update the pre-loaded maps which come with the unit, in a couple of years? I currently have a Street Pilot i3, but can't get your website to tell me about mapping updates for it, so I have no idea how much these cost.
A. About £60. This update will also give you Europe. However, the 710 will either come with the 2009 maps for UK/ROI, or if not, you will be able to upgrade to this for free later.

3. Approx indication of how much it would cost to buy additional maps, say for Europe?
A. See above.

4. I intend to use the unit for driving holidays, which requires rollowing a specific route set with waypoints (rather than relying on the unit to calculate best route from A to B). I understand the 7xx series supports this feature, but I was wondering will I need to pay for extra products or software to create these routes on my PC and distribute them to people who have Garmin sat nav's? If so, are there other Garmin sat nav's I could buy with these extra things included in the price?

A. With the 710, you will need to buy City Navigator maps on DVD, which come with "Map Source" (about £100 for both). You will then also need "Waypoint manager" (about £20). Even though you've bought the maps on the 710, the license does not include using this mapping data on a PC.

However, you will be able to create a route on the 710 and share the gpx file with other people, so the question which remains is how easy it is to create a route on the 710.

More questions
1. Can a definitely export a route that's been created on a nuvi to another Garmin gps without using Map Source? (gpx file)
A.Yes. There is a file on the device called "CurrentRoutes.gpx". If you send this to someone, they can replace their corresponding file on their device, and they will then have your routes. You can't do it individually using this method, and if they wanted to keep their own routes, they would need to backup their own CurrentRoutes.gpx file first.

2. When you buy map data for PC (City Navigator + Map Source), does the license cover use on the PC and on the device?
A. They were a bit confused about this point. I think the answer is yes, but it doesn't work the other way round - pre-loaded maps on a device do not cover use on a PC (or on another device).

3. What is the cheapest package which includes a device and PC data?
A. They seem to be moving away from this. Only zumo 550

4. Is there a way to see what it's like creating routes on the device (in Halfords, they have no signal). Or is there an online demo version?
A. You don't need a signal to create a route, so go in and hassle Halfords.

[ScoobyChris]

Thanks, Mark - clears up a few of my questions

Chris

[Gareth]

Well done for doing this!

There is a file on the device called "CurrentRoutes.gpx". If you send this to someone, they can replace their corresponding file on their device, and they will then have your routes. You can't do it individually using this method, and if they wanted to keep their own routes, they would need to backup their own CurrentRoutes.gpx file first.

This is interesting and something I didn't know. It would also be nice to know if a gpx file from another source, (such as created by someone with MapSource software), could be copied over the CurrentRoutes.gpx file on the device.

2. When you buy map data for PC (City Navigator + Map Source), does the license cover use on the PC and on the device?
A. They were a bit confused about this point. I think the answer is yes, but it doesn't work the other way round - pre-loaded maps on a device do not cover use on a PC (or on another device).

I think I can clarify this based on what I read on Garmin's website today. First of all, to set the scene ...

- Devices with built-in mapping data have a licence to use the mapping data on that device. Upgrading to newer map data can only happen by getting a device specific upgrade.

- Devices that are supplied without built-in mapping data and which rely on MapSource to download the mapping data have a licence to use the mapping data on the specific device, (so that you can't buy two zumo 550s, one with and the other without mapping data, and then use the mapping data for both devices).

If you buy a MapSource + mapping data DVD then you can use the mapping data on one Garmin all-in-one unit that doesn't already come with mapping data built-in. There's a web-based licence process to go through, in which you register your device serial number and your mapping data serial number and get them notionally linked, and in return you receive a code that allows the map data to be used on the device.

3. What is the cheapest package which includes a device and PC data?
A. They seem to be moving away from this. Only zumo 550

This didn't used to be the case. At one time all their devices or systems that supported mapping used MapSource to download maps, routes, POIs and to upload tracks. As there was pressure in the market to reduce prices, and as technology became cheaper, they have developed the idea of market segment into which more restricted and cheaper devices can be sold.

To be fair you asked about the cheapest package, and the answer you received is appropriate for all-in-one systems. I think it might be cheaper to buy a GPS-10x bluetooth receiver and then separately to buy MapSource + mapping data on a DVD, and to use a PocketPC. Cheaper still is to buy a wired GPS receiver, which could also be used with a laptop.

Both these are less convenient though.

There are other more expensive devices available from Garmin that are supplied with MapSource and the mapping data on a DVD.

[Custom24]

It's a minefield out there.

I still think I am going to go for the 710 or 760 on its own, as the extra cost for occasional route generation in my case in not worth it. I will have a play in Halfords and make sure route generation is not a complete pain on the device itself. I am intending to have specific waypoints ready to put in (towns/villages/intersections from a Google maps route) rather than generating the route on the device completely.

[Horse]

Given the small price difference between the nuvi 710 and the nuvi 760, I would choose the latter which also includes European mapping.

A possible 'deciding point' is the spoken road names on some of the 7** models - it was a deciding factor on us buying the 760T (T= built-in traffic data & aerial). The spoken 'name' gives extra confidence on where to turn etc.

FWIW we found that 'Daniel' has better pronounciation than the standard female voice eg 'Buckingham' rather than 'Buchinggham' That's 'Road', BTW, we weren't going to the Palace

Hence forth, the SatNag is often known as DanDan.

Our experience of both Garmin and TomTom is that Garmin is better for following predefined routes and TomTom is better for giving timely instructions in built-up areas.

Haven't compared the two, but the Garmin seems pretty good on the way directions are given and the timing of them. There's also the 'countdown' in the bottom right of the screen which gives distance to junctions.




The Filly does have one request for people who do th eprogramming: could it say "My way / Your way", or "Left, no the other left"?

[MiniClubmanEstate]

This link may be useful for many GPS system owners.


http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html

It is a community based effort to design a new mapping platform using information gathered from GPS devices.

[Gareth]

I will have a play in Halfords and make sure route generation is not a complete pain on the device itself.

I have a PocketPc running almost identical software. Adding a route is fairly simple, but a bit cumbersome and long-winded if you have a large number of points to enter. It is fairly easy to use POIs or town names but if you want to include specific points on particular roads, then it is a question of repeatedly scrolling and zooming until you find the point you want to include in the route. It helps to have already worked out the route you want to use on Google Maps, so then you will have a good idea about where to put the routing points to get the desired route.

[waremark]

It helps to have already worked out the route you want to use on Google Maps, so then you will have a good idea about where to put the routing points to get the desired route.

Those of you who only want to arrive at a location by an efficient route, ignore all this discussion. But for those who want their sat-nav to guide them round a pre-planned route:

Yes, that's what I do to create routes for the TT. Generally it works to enter the route to the TT using village names (in TT you can choose 'Address/City Centre', in Garmin I think you have to choose a street name??). If you have to use 'Point on Map', you can start browsing the map near the right place using 'Find'.

The process is not ideal, but I don't think it is any better on Garmin. After entering your route, you have to run it and check to see whether it goes where you want it to; even using the same waypoints, the logic in the device may choose a different route from Google Maps. Then if it is not quite right, to add an additional waypoint you have to go back into the route; and after you enter a new waypoint, the new waypoint always starts at the end of the route and has to be moved up. I generally do all this using my laptop to control the TT via TT Home (TT's PC software).

In TT software you can make a via point either a waypoint, in which case it will continue to the next waypoint once you have been somewhere nearby, or a destination in which case you have to manually tell it to move on . Sometimes the fact that the sat-nav does not need to go exactly to a waypoint can be a nuisance, for example if you are trying to travel a country road which runs parallel to a major road. How does Garmin deal with this?