Electronic parking brakes and the dsa

[jbsportstech]

http://www.driving.org/DSAputsThe.html

[jont]

It's pretty clear from that article that communication is a serious problem at the DSA - mind you, I don't think I'd be spending thousands on a new car without getting something in writing - a phone call is all well and good, but may not be that helpful if it ends up in court.

It's not clear from that link exactly how the electronic parking break works. My understanding was that the handbrake was designed to be a manual system in case of hydraulic failure (and I guess also electrical) - thus leaving a way to slow a car down. Mind you, it's fairly ineffective if you're moving at any sort of speed.

I don't think it's unreasonable for the DSA to dis-allow vehicles with electronic aids from being used - for instance does anyone know what their view on parking sensors is? Or even something like the lexus autoparking system? How about cars with hill-start assist? Or radar cruise control? And haven't Volvo recently announced a "collision avoidance system" for the slow speed accidents (typical of roundabouts etc).

Jon

[fungus]

The reason that electronic handbrakes are not allowed on a DSA driving test, is that the candidate is expected to demonstrate control of the vehicle when executing a hill start. In other words, co-ordinate the use of accelerator, clutch, and handbrake, without rolling back.

I am not familiar with the opporation of these handbrakes, but I would imagine that they make hill starts easier.

As far as anti roll devices are concerned, I can not imagine that they would be allowed either, for the same reasons.

Parking sensors should be no problem, as the reverse parallel park excercise is not done between two cars, or at least, two that are close together.

Nigel ADI
IAM trainee observer.

[waremark]

I don't think it's unreasonable for the DSA to dis-allow vehicles with electronic aids from being used

So in the future as driver aids become more and more widely fitted, will it be necessary for the DSA to have a special vehicle built for learners to learn how to use obsolete systems?

Personally, I don't think an electronic park brake changes the process of driving enough for it to be banned on test. And it will become an increasing problem as more and more cars have electronic hold systems fitted.

If the instructor concerned can convince a court that he is telling the truth, he will be entitled to have his losses on the Renault covered by the DSA.

[jont]

I don't think it's unreasonable for the DSA to dis-allow vehicles with electronic aids from being used

So in the future as driver aids become more and more widely fitted, will it be necessary for the DSA to have a special vehicle built for learners to learn how to use obsolete systems?

It's a good question. ABS and ESP certainly haven't provided any issues, although it's often concerned me that an instructor will likely have an ABS equipped car, but a youngsters first car probably won't have it (again, as time goes by this becomes less likely).

Personally, I don't think an electronic park brake changes the process of driving enough for it to be banned on test. And it will become an increasing problem as more and more cars have electronic hold systems fitted.

While I agree with you there, what about the automatic collision avoidance technology that's starting to appear? Or the hill-start assist? Remembering that in any case it's something of an artificial test to allow the learner to demonstrate balanced use of the controls.

[Red Herring]

I drove a Discovery recently that just had a button for the handbrake. I made the comment that it must be quite hard to do hillstarts as the button doesn't have a "biting" point, it's either on or off, only to be told it releases automatically. Apparently when you stop on a hill you push the button to set the brake. When you want to move off you engage first gear clutch down, then push the botton to release the brake, and then as you bring the clutch up the "system" automatically releases the brake as the drive takes the vehicle forward. I didn't actually get a chance to try this out......can anyone confirm this is how they work? If so does it work the other way round if you are trying to reverse up a hill?

[Porker]

In my limited experience of these, the "handbrake" will stop the car from moving until there is "positive" drive to move it. This applies even if the brake is switched off, after being on, until the first time the car moves after the brake being set to off.

Many (maybe all) will also release the handbrake autoatically if the accelerator is pressed and the car is in gear (for automatics, at least).

I haven't tried a manual car that's been so equipped, so can't comment there.

P.

[Red Herring]

In that case I can sort of see the DSA's point of view as I'd imagine it would cause problems if a canditate passed in a car so equipped, and then had to drive one with a conventional handbrake. I suppose it's a bit like the manual/automatic licence, but we can hardly expect the DSA to create another class of licence just to allow for these brakes.

[firstmk1]

But how is that different to power steering, ABS, ESP, brake assist, petrol vs. diesel etc? There will always be differences between vehicles but you only take you test in one.

[waremark]

When you want to move off you engage first gear clutch down, then push the botton to release the brake, and then as you bring the clutch up the "system" automatically releases the brake as the drive takes the vehicle forward. I didn't actually get a chance to try this out......can anyone confirm this is how they work? If so does it work the other way round if you are trying to reverse up a hill?

I hired a Renault Espace with the system, and I expect the Scenic which was the basis of the original piece is the same. So far as I remember yes, it worked like that in either forward or reverse gears, except that there was no need to push a button to release the brake. You just put the car in gear and started to drive uphill. BMWs and Mercs have a similar hold system based on the footbrake (hold the car on a hill on the footbrake, move your foot from the footbrake to the throttle, the car does not move, then simply drive away). I am sure other brands do too.

I suppose DSA could deal with this by redefining manual/auto. 'To qualify as a manual, a car must have a pedal operated clutch, and require the driver to coordinate manual use of accelerator clutch and parking brake in order to start on a hill without rolling back'.

[TripleS]

In my limited experience of these, the "handbrake" will stop the car from moving until there is "positive" drive to move it. This applies even if the brake is switched off, after being on, until the first time the car moves after the brake being set to off.

Many (maybe all) will also release the handbrake autoatically if the accelerator is pressed and the car is in gear (for automatics, at least).

I haven't tried a manual car that's been so equipped, so can't comment there.

P.

My limited experience of these devices tallies fairly well with what you say.

When I was delivering new cars - all Fords - I only remember encountering a 'peculiar handbrake' on one of those, and I think it was the Focus C-Max.

I also once drove a Renault somethingorother (maybe a Scenic) as a rental car for one of my return trips, and that had a handbrake that seemed to release automatically when drive was applied to move away from a standstill. Presumably with front whel drive and a handbrake operating on the rear wheels, it detected the amount of stretch in the chassis, and decided to release itself at that point.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

Today I had a diesel Mini as a loan car. It had one of these hill start systems - there is a conventional handbrake, but if you hold the car on a hill using the footbrake, when you release the footbrake the brake continues to hold for a couple of seconds, to give you time to drive off uphill without having to touch the handbrake at all. It worked well.

I understand that this feature was an optional extra on the car I borrowed. However, it will not be long before such features are fitted to many cars.

Would the DSA ban a vehicle with hill start assist, if it did not have an electronic parking brake?

[jont]

Today I had a diesel Mini as a loan car. It had one of these hill start systems - there is a conventional handbrake, but if you hold the car on a hill using the footbrake, when you release the footbrake the brake continues to hold for a couple of seconds, to give you time to drive off uphill without having to touch the handbrake at all. It worked well.

I understand that this feature was an optional extra on the car I borrowed. However, it will not be long before such features are fitted to many cars.

Would the DSA ban a vehicle with hill start assist, if it did not have an electronic parking brake?

How would you feel if your car was taken off the road because a new driver rolled back into you while sat at traffic lights because they learned to drive in a car with hill-start assist but happened to be in courtesy car without it and forgot?

[TripleS]

Today I had a diesel Mini as a loan car. It had one of these hill start systems - there is a conventional handbrake, but if you hold the car on a hill using the footbrake, when you release the footbrake the brake continues to hold for a couple of seconds, to give you time to drive off uphill without having to touch the handbrake at all. It worked well.

I understand that this feature was an optional extra on the car I borrowed. However, it will not be long before such features are fitted to many cars.

Would the DSA ban a vehicle with hill start assist, if it did not have an electronic parking brake?

How would you feel if your car was taken off the road because a new driver rolled back into you while sat at traffic lights because they learned to drive in a car with hill-start assist but happened to be in courtesy car without it and forgot?

Mark wouldn't have stopped so close to him. T & T etc....

The other guy would need to run back a long way - not just a few inches.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[waremark]

I'm not taking a strong line on this. I think it is a very interesting question. I am putting the cart before the horse in asking whether the DSA should allow you to take the test in cars which have this sort of equipment. The more important question is whether someone who has learned to drive on a car with hill start assist will be able to cope in a car without it. After all, you can pass in a small car and legally drive something very much larger the next day - is this just another difference that you can be expected to cope with? My conclusion is that you might have to be taught and to practise how to do a hill-start without hill start assist.

I am coming round to the view that to pass a driving test for a manual car you should have to demonstrate coordination of accelerator, clutch, handbrake and steering, and that no car which does not make you demonstrate this should be eligible for a manual driving test.

In the case of the Renault Scenic which started this thread off, there was an additional factor to consider: the electronic park brake. If teaching someone to drive in a car not equipped with a dual brake pedal I would have serious reservations about using a car without a conventional handbrake reachable from the passenger seat. However, for a driving school car which does have a dual brake pedal this should not be a factor.