Can you folks answer this... now more info.......

[ROG]

If a non ADI is supervising a learner is there a legal requirement for the supervising licence holder to be able to drive the vehicle.

I found this lot below which says about control in an emergency but it does not say anything about the supervisor being obliged to drive if the learner got into difficulty.


Statutory Instrument 1996 No. 1997
The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 1996

1996 No. 1997

ROAD TRAFFIC

The Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 1996

Made 23rd July 1996
Laid before Parliament 6th August 1996
Coming into force 9th September 1996


The Secretary of State for Transport, in exercise of the powers conferred on him by sections 97(3)[1], 105, and 108(1)[2] of the Road Traffic Act 1988, after consulting with representative organisations in accordance with section 195(2) of that Act, hereby makes the following Regulations:—
1. These Regulations may be cited as the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) (Amendment) (No. 4) Regulations 1996 and shall come into force on 9th September 1996.
2. Regulation 9(6) of the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1987[3] shall be amended in accordance with the following regulations.
3.—(1) The definition of "leg disability" shall be omitted.

(2) For the definition of "qualified driver" there shall be substituted—
""qualified driver" means—
(a) in the case of the supervision of the driver of a motor car by a person whose licence is limited by virtue of a notice served under section 92(5)(b) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to vehicles of a particular class, a person who holds a full licence authorising him to drive a motor car of a class falling within the same category as the motor car being driven by the holder of the provisional licence and who would in an emergency be able to take control of the steering and braking functions of that motor car,

(b) in any other case, a person who holds a full licence authorising him to drive a motor vehicle of the same class as the vehicle being driven by the holder of the provisional licence,

and who is either—
(i) at least 21 years of age and has held the licence referred to above for an aggregate period of 3 years or more, or

(ii) a member of the armed services of the Crown acting in the course of his duties for naval, military or air force purposes."

Signed by authority of the Secretary of State for Transport

Steven Norris

Parliamentary Under Secretary of State, Department of Transport

23rd July 1996
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
EXPLANATORY NOTE

(This note is not part of the Regulations)
These regulations further amend regulation 9(6) of the Motor Vehicles (Driving Licences) Regulations 1987 by providing that, subject to one special condition, any person with a disability may be a "qualified driver" for the purpose of supervising a learner driver in a motor car. The special condition (in addition to general conditions as to age and experience) is that he must be able to take control of the braking and steering of the car in an emergency.

This provision replaces the previous regulation, which permitted only persons suffering from leg disabilities to act as supervisors (whether or not they could take control in an emergency).

[jont]

Not without a login to that forum...

[MGF]

Section 92 of RTA 198 refers to disabled drivers who have limitations on their entitlement to drive.

You can ignore 2 (a) of these regs with regards to other supervisors.

[ROG]

Section 92 of RTA 198 refers to disabled drivers who have limitations on their entitlement to drive.

You can ignore 2 (a) of these regs with regards to other supervisors.

So does that mean that the supervising driver MUST drive the vehicle if the learner is unable to for any reason

[crr003]

So does that mean that the supervising driver MUST drive the vehicle if the learner is unable to for any reason

I can't see it being a MUST - what about insurance?

[ROG]

So does that mean that the supervising driver MUST drive the vehicle if the learner is unable to for any reason

I can't see it being a MUST - what about insurance?

Bit more explanation for you folks -

LGV artic on normal work duties with a fully licenced driver at the wheel.

After doing the legal maximum of 10 hours driving and still having enough duty time left the driver then puts L plates on it and a CE provisional driver takes over the driving.
The licenced driver then sits in the passenger seat as the supervising driver.

All insurance and everything else is sorted and legal.

At some point the learner gets into difficulty.

The supervising driver cannot legally drive as he has used up all his driving hours.

Can he legally supervise as he cannot drive the truck

Does a supervising driver have a legal obligation to drive a vehicle that gets into difficulty when a learner is being supervised

[jbsportstech]

as a matter of course I wont supervise anyone without knowing I can take over driving the vehicle legally.

[jont]

as a matter of course I wont supervise anyone without knowing I can take over driving the vehicle legally.

So you have insurance on all your associates cars? Or are you relying on third party other cars cover?

[jbsportstech]

I ment in the contex of leaner I always make sure that I am covered on their vehicle and I have only taught two people.

In the contex of associate in that sitaution I would rely on my 3rd party cover. My mum's saab is cover for anyone over 25 as my sister older drives it and her husband who doesnt have his own 3rd party cover so she had to get it. She only took it out when last year when I turned 25 tho.

[ROG]

In the contex of associate in that sitaution I would rely on my 3rd party cover.

That's a bit risky isn't it?

If the observer has fully comp and is allowed to drive anothers car on third party WITH THEIR PERMISSION then it should not be a problem.

If however, an EMERGENCY situation was to occur - lets say the associate had a medical emergency and the best solution was to take them to hospital - then I would think that the authorities would take that into consideration if pulled.

I'm still waiting for an answer to -

Does a supervising driver have a legal obligation to drive a vehicle that gets into difficulty when a learner is being supervised

[waremark]

Why would an observer drive an associates car? I reckon it would have to be a pretty serious emergency to justify driving someone else's car on 3rd party only, unless you are rich enough to pay for the worst that can happen. It would be normal to use one's own car for demos, and there are even insurance issues with that (it may not be covered by normal 'social domestic and pleasure puposes' insurance).

[ROG]

Senario -

The supervising driver is in the passenger seat of their own car.
They have a broken foot and hand and cannot physically drive the car.

The learner is a family member

Is the supervising driver legal as they cannot take over the driving if the learner gets into difficulty

[Angus]

Why would an observer drive an associates car?

I won't do it, but some of our observers will demonstrate in an associate's car. Personally, as I have access to auto & manual, i will wait until the end of the drive and then demonstrate in my own vehicle.

I think (but may be wrong) that the IAM Surety scheme gives an extension for observers to drives associates vehicles.

[MGF]

Section 92 of RTA 198 refers to disabled drivers who have limitations on their entitlement to drive.

You can ignore 2 (a) of these regs with regards to other supervisors.

So does that mean that the supervising driver MUST drive the vehicle if the learner is unable to for any reason

Wilkinson's Road Traffic Offences

“...momentarily taking over control of the steering or of the engine may well amount to ‘driving’ as one of the main duties of a supervisor of a learner driver is to take control of the car in an emergency.”

Lord Justice Nelson QBD of the High Court

"In my judgment, the passage in Wilkinson which deals with this possible defence is entirely right."

You can interpret that as you wish but it seems to me to be strong authority that there is an obligation to take control in an emergency.

Furthermore, Nelson LJ went on to say it is possible for two people to be driving a car at the same time. (The main driver and he who assists him)


If you mean swap seats to drive then it seems obvious that there is no obligation on the supervisor to do so. His duties are confined to the driving itself.

Driving someone to hospital in an emergency when you are over your driving-hours limit would best be dealt with by the defence of 'necessity'.

[ROG]

Why would an observer drive an associates car?

I won't do it, but some of our observers will demonstrate in an associate's car. Personally, as I have access to auto & manual, i will wait until the end of the drive and then demonstrate in my own vehicle.

I think (but may be wrong) that the IAM Surety scheme gives an extension for observers to drives associates vehicles.

From my IAM surety policy -

IAM Scheme: Use of vehicle

Use is construded to include IAM approved 'Observers' conducting demonstration drives in their own vehicle.

We confirm that the receipt of a mileage or petrol allowance in relation to voluntary or charity work is acceptable under this Policy and does not constitute Use for hire and Reward.