Pavements

[delsutton]

Hi

Could someone please clarify things for me regarding driving across pavements to gain access to building entrances and driveways? I had an incident recently (actually as a pedestrian) that I think was pretty clear-cut in the eyes of the law, but the situation made me start thinking a bit more.

I was walking along a fairly wide pavement in London that had a dropped kerb to allow cars easier access to enter the underground car park of an office block. As I was passing the entrance this guy in a 911 drove up onto the pavement and started honking his horn at me to get out of his way. I went to his window and explained to him that as a pedestrian I had right of way on a footpath to which he responded that if there was an entrance then that gave the motorist the right of way and that I should be more careful in future, at which point he screeched off down the car park ramp!!!

Now, I know in that case I was right and he was in the wrong, but it started me thinking. I was taught when learning to drive that pedestrians ALWAYS have the right of way on a pavement, no matter what the circumstances. The trouble is that when there is a cut-away kerb at, say, as is frequently the case, the entrance into filling stations and supermarkets, is that still part of the pavement? I was always taught that is was part of the footpath and that I had to yield, but a few of my friends insist that the kerb edge at the cut-away signals the end of the footpath and they expect pedestrians to halt. I have seen, both as a driver and a pedestrian, many instances of cars cutting up pedestrians in this kind of situation, and in one case a very near miss.

I would always out of courtesy (even if not legally obliged to) slow up and allow pedestrians to pass acrooss the entrance, but what is the exact legal position?

[ExadiNigel]

When crossing teh mouth of a junction, the pedestrian has priority over any vehicle driver too.

Nigel

[jbsportstech]

All german cars have right away especially porsches, audis, mercs and bmws didnt you know that???

I watched a coxster s in my sainsburys the other day nearly run over a women and children as he had special dispensation to park in parent and child at an angle as they looked liked a pair of time share salesman as they where in a hurry to draw on 20 pounds from the cash point matter of life and death when you have shoes as long and as pointy as these guys!! Idiots...

Its one thing I enjoy in the passat you don't need to indicate or give way ignorance is bliss.

I have adapt my driving when in the focus as its got shitty ford badge on it.

[ROG]

A pedestrian has the 'right of way' every time.

The only one I'm not too sure of is the motorway where it is illegal for a pedestrian to be - but does that also mean that they do not have the 'right of way' if they are on it - legal bods please......

[ScoobyChris]

I would always out of courtesy (even if not legally obliged to) slow up and allow pedestrians to pass acrooss the entrance, but what is the exact legal position?

Not a legal eagle, but I think the answer is that the vehicle/person who arrives their first has right of way (accord precedence I think is what I've heard it called previously).

Chris

[jbsportstech]

On a motorway I think only police and Highways high viz bods have right of way if clearing the carriageway although if you hit them at the speed limit or speed on the matrix signs and kill them, the excuse you where adhering to the speed limit should get you off the hook in the current speed is the only killer climate.

seriously: I always stop for pedestrians as in the eye law if you hit them you have passed the most basic of tests to be on the road and to be a pedestrian you are not required to display any skill so the driver is always looked at to blame.

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Surely pedestrians also have a duty of care not to step out in front of moving vehicles? Even zebra crossings do not give the pedestrian right of way until they set foot on the crossing.

I think the above should read "pedestrians already crossing always have right of way", and even then, I wouldn't expect to screech to a halt without protest if I came round a corner on an NSL road and found a pedestrian taking a leisurely walk across the carriageway...

[delsutton]

Surely pedestrians also have a duty of care not to step out in front of moving vehicles? Even zebra crossings do not give the pedestrian right of way until they set foot on the crossing.

I guess that's true legally. However, I always see the intention as the most important thing, so if I see someone waiting at a zebra crossing, whether they have a foot out or not, I assume they want to cross and therefore stop. And as I'm in a protected shell then I think morally that must be the right thing too. Maybe it's because I grew up with family who sail, where the rule is motor always gives way to sail, however annoying! ( I remember being with a friend who deliberately sailed across the incoming path of a car-ferry just to show the power he had over them!... and impressive it was too, if foolhardy!)

[Mr Cholmondeley-Warner]

Yep, and I'm sure we all do the same. However you'd still be a bit miffed if someone waited until you were right on top of them and then stepped out in front of you "because they can". Give and take, is all I'm suggesting.

[MGF]

The trouble is that when there is a cut-away kerb at, say, as is frequently the case, the entrance into filling stations and supermarkets, is that still part of the pavement?

This is my understanding of the law.

The highway in urban areas normally consists of the carriageway on which vehicles have priority over pedestrians and the footway (commonly called the pavement) for the exclusive use of pedestrians.

Where the kerb is dropped for access, vehicles have a right of way (in the sense of right to use) over the footway. It is still the footway.

Worst case scenario for the pedestrian is his priority is limited to already being on the dropped kerb area before the vehicle starts to cross but it is definately wrong to say a footway ends where the dropped kerb begins.

[7db]

When crossing teh mouth of a junction, the pedestrian has priority over any vehicle driver too.

Nigel

I disagree with this. I think vehicles have priority over pedestrians at junctions when the vehicle is in the minor road -- and more generally over pedestrians when the vehicle is in the road before the pedestrian is.

As crossings the priority rests with the vehicle when it crosses the studs before the pedestrian steps on the crossing.

Obviously "priority" is no excuse for mowing someone down who goes ahead of their priority across yours. But you might like to warn as you would any other road user.

There's a common law priority system for roads etc away from junctions (Vinny - help!) which allows the gentry on their horses to mow the mere peasant pedestrians down.

Once they are in the road you have to do everything you can (and certainly everything that a careful and competent driver would do) to avoid the collision.

[crr003]

When crossing teh mouth of a junction, the pedestrian has priority over any vehicle driver too.

Nigel

I disagree with this. I think vehicles have priority over pedestrians at junctions when the vehicle is in the minor road -- and more generally over pedestrians when the vehicle is in the road before the pedestrian is.

HC 170:
Take extra care at junctions:
.
.
watch out for pedestrians crossing a road into which you are turning. If they have started to cross they have priority, so give way.

[7db]

That's right crr003 - into which you are turning.
If you are turning out of it, then you have priority.

[ExadiNigel]

Sorry should have been clearer in my post.

Now time for a quote from teh Highway Code...

‘The rules in The Highway Code do not give you right of way in any circumstances, but they advise you when you should give way to others. Always give way if it can help to avoid an accident.’ - p34 The Highway Code 2007

Nigel

[Red Herring]

That's right crr003 - into which you are turning.
If you are turning out of it, then you have priority.

That's not my understanding.
I always thought the carriageway is hedgerow to hedgerow so includes the pavement. If the pavement is along the side of the main road then it continues across the mouth of the junction notionally and the pedestrian is in effect walking on the main road when you approach from the minor road. You are therefore required to give way to them in the same way that you would afford precedence to a motor vehicle. Likewise if you are driving on the main road and wish to turn into the side road you are turning across the pedestrians right of way and are required to avoid them. A turning into a garage, driveway etc has the same principal applied. A pedestrian is another road user and all legislation applies.